Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discussion

[MeanJoePhaser]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

My take was that this event was covered up. With the "real" death of Hitler too complicated and messy, in terms of all involved, to be revealed to the public. The Allies would not have been completely aware of everything anyways. Of course Tarantino leaves the whole issue unanswered. Which is for the best. We can either see it as a full blown alternate history of the end of the war or merely that of a fictional secret history.

The secret history angle doesn't work at all, since Hermann Goering was at the Nuremberg trials, among a lot of other things. You'd need dopplegangers of key Nazis.

Highly unlikely that Hitler would've gone to Paris post-D-Day, anyway.

The movie was a farce. Entertaining but deliberately a farce (as opposed to say Gladiator, which is supposed to be serious in its historical bullshittery). Not sure if was intended, but Hitler killed by American commandos may have been a nod Dirty Dozen: The Next Mission (a made for tv sequel from the 80's), where a black American sniper is supposed to kill a german general...but that general is meeting Hitler. And Lee Marvin tells him to not to kill Hitler but to kill the general (for some vague reasons involving the war lasting longer).

It's both a nod and a knock on the WW2 special missions genre. Since most of the movies where guys go behind enemy lines to destroy some key axis asset are utter rubbish, even the ones with actual historical targets (Bridge on the River Kwai). So here, the German target is the man himself and instead of destroying some obscure person/place/thing that vaguely helps the allies win...they off Hitler and the war in Europe is (assumably) won.

 

[davejames]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

I'm not even sure I'd go that far. All the little details feed into the culminating moment, but not in a way that allows for any real agency beyond the story itself: Landa is distracted, but more importantly, we're distracted as an audience until we realize that if all those little moments and dead-ends hadn't happened, the movie would end differently. But nobody is ultimately in control.

Except, perhaps, for Shoshanna ... and then only after she meets Landa in Paris.

I don't know, I'm starting to wonder if Landa really DID know who Shoshanna was in Paris, and (considering the little conspiracy he had going) simply left her to carry on with whatever she may have been planning.

The guy was such a good detective I'd kinda be surprised if he hadn't done some thorough research on her, or noticed how well the ages lined up...

 

[firehawk12]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

Well, I figured the glass of milk was a huge wink that he knew exactly who she was.

 

[Endymion]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

My review is right here...

http://moveitmoveit.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/i-want-my-scalps/

 

[CaptainCanada]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

Regarding whether he knew who Shoshanna was, I don't know. He never actually saw her face in the movie, so I don't know how he'd recognize her (you could assume he possibly had a photo of her somewhere in his file, but we weren't shown that).

Well, the problem with that is that the only reason why the "real" Germans lost WW2 was because of Hitler's insane command structure and his general ineptitude as a commander.

I mean, all the incompetent leadership was killed... leaving all the "true" commanders left on the field to act without political interference. At that point, they probably would have won the war - or at least caused a protracted stalemate leading to a conditional surrender.

Doubtful. By 1944, the Germans were going down to the Russians no matter what they did. No matter how much better the leadership was, Marshal Zhukov's armies would have steamrolled across Germany (if anything, in your scenario, the end would have been more protracted and bloody for both sides before the same result was achieved). Better leadership from 1940 to 1942 might have won the day, but it was too late by 1944.

 

[firehawk12]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

I just think ordering the glass of milk was fairly on the nose, especially since they made the point that it was one of the few things that she would have understood while he was at the house having his conversation with the French farmer.

I must admit I don't really know much about the Eastern front (Western bias in education and video games, I'm sure. ), but this took place sometime when D-Day would have supposedly happened or was happening. They had everything they needed to repel an Allied invasion of France - especially since the Allies got bogged down after the initial landings - if they just put the pieces in the right places. I have to assume that if they were able to stalemate or even win the Western front, they would have had some decent resources to keep the Russians at bay.

But I think at that point, a Nazi victory would have been a negotiated surrender that kept Germany intact. If they were able to hold out long enough to inflict high casualties on both fronts, it might have been a possibility.

Although, maybe I'm entering Tom Cruise/Valkyrie territory with that supposition.

 

[davejames]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

I just think ordering the glass of milk was fairly on the nose, especially since they made the point that it was one of the few things that she would have understood while he was at the house having his conversation with the French farmer.

Well clearly Quentin was having fun with that, but it's not until Landa's last comment about forgetting the question he wanted to ask (which he said in a little TOO playful a way) that I think we were meant to think he actually knew.

 

[Derishton]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

I see all the signs that Landa knew, I just can't figure out how he would know in any logical way. Or, for that matter, why he let her go in the first place ... "Well, she has this aunt who owns a theatre, who'll get the flu and die, and then a German officer acting in propaganda films will meet her randomly, and THEN ..."

 

[firehawk12]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

Yeah, well... this is a movie where Hitler is assassinated and we have crazy Americans carving swastikas into people's foreheads... maybe it's omnipotent movie villian movie logic.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

I loved it. Wasn't sure what to expect, as the reviews have been so mixed and I wasn't overly impressed by the trailers. But I thought the dialogue was fantastic, the performances superb, the action intense and the comedy laugh-out loud ('bon giorno'). It wasn't really the 'men on a mission' movie QT has been talking about since Pulp Fiction (the Basterds hardly featured) but it was still a hugely entertaining movie. With the usual great soundtrack.

Waltz deserves an Oscar, if there is any justice, but I would love to have seen more of Michael Fassbender's character. Even Mike Myer's character was fun to watch and listen to, once you got past 'That's Austin Powers!' All of the characters were spot-on, from the new father in the bar, to Pitt's moonshiner, to the farmer in the first scene. All of them would have merited more time - wonder if the DVD will have many deleted scenes.

I still want to see Tarantino make serious movies - I want to see his Raging Bull, his Godfather Part 2 or his Heat. Or even a serious, historically accurate war movie. But if he wants to keep ploughing this particular undefinable furrow of his own - well, if they're all this good, I can't really complain.

 

[Derishton]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

I've heard that the Cannes version was three hours, and that many critics were reviewing that one without paying much attention to the deleted scenes; when Tarantino has mentioned this, his tone implies that he's happy with this version, and there will be no director's cut. I assume, though, that we'll see some of those extended scenes, at least.

And firehawk, I suspect you're right.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

I see all the signs that Landa knew, I just can't figure out how he would know in any logical way. Or, for that matter, why he let her go in the first place ... "Well, she has this aunt who owns a theatre, who'll get the flu and die, and then a German officer acting in propaganda films will meet her randomly, and THEN ..."

I didn't think he let her go, just that he realized he didn't have the shot. She was already at least a field's length away, and he was aiming with a hand-gun.

but this took place sometime when D-Day would have supposedly happened or was happening. They had everything they needed to repel an Allied invasion of France - especially since the Allies got bogged down after the initial landings - if they just put the pieces in the right places. I have to assume that if they were able to stalemate or even win the Western front, they would have had some decent resources to keep the Russians at bay.

But I think at that point, a Nazi victory would have been a negotiated surrender that kept Germany intact. If they were able to hold out long enough to inflict high casualties on both fronts, it might have been a possibility.

D-Day had already happened in the movie (Hitler mentions it, and they drive to US lines at the end, which wouldn't be possible if it hadn't). With the Allied armies ashore, they might inflict more casualties if Hitler wasn't in charge, but there'd be no prospect of getting rid of them.

The Russians had already lost close to 20 million people at this point; they weren't stopping for anything. The Western Allies wouldn't be able to stop unless the Russians did.

 

[Derishton]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

Landa has that gun trained on her for a very long time, though, which makes the audience think we're about to see the "sureshot" trope. I could be convinced that Tarantino is doing that deliberately, but would still wonder why. One reviewer said that Landa is interesting in part because he's probably a nobody in civilian life; maybe the scene is there partly to show us that he isn't a good shot by raising the expectation that he is.

Then again, it all just gets us back to the question of that glass of milk in Paris, and whether it implies (as it seems to do) that he knows who she is.

 

[davejames]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

I didn't think he let her go, just that he realized he didn't have the shot. She was already at least a field's length away, and he was aiming with a hand-gun.

Actually my impression is that he wanted the challenge of hunting her down later, and that simply shooting her while running away wouldn't have fed his enormous ego in quite the same way.

His Nazi troops could have easily chased her down, after all.


(BTW, if anyone is interested in hearing a cool interview with Waltz, Adam Carolla did a podcast with him a couple days ago. The guy is pretty much as charming and classy as you'd expect.)

 

[Shaytan]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

I've heard that the Cannes version was three hours, and that many critics were reviewing that one without paying much attention to the deleted scenes; when Tarantino has mentioned this, his tone implies that he's happy with this version, and there will be no director's cut. I assume, though, that we'll see some of those extended scenes, at least.

Apparently the Cannes version is 148 minutes long.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

Re: Landa letting Shosanna go...

... In the script there's a scene right after that where Herrman asks Landa why he let her go, and he responds that no one else in town will be foolish enough to house her after learning what happened to her family, and that she has no money, nowhere to go, but joked that maybe she'll die, or maybe she'll escape to America and eventually become President of the United States. So my take on it? Landa figured she was dead anyway, and thought it would be more "fun" to have her escape knowing her predicament.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

Then again, it all just gets us back to the question of that glass of milk in Paris, and whether it implies (as it seems to do) that he knows who she is.

I interpreted that as a coincidence that would make her profoundly uncomfortable while meaning nothing to Landa. Now, depending on the original cut, maybe there was more to it, but in the absence of any narrative payoff to the possibility that he knew it was her, I tend to read it that way.

 

[firehawk12]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

Hell, I want to see the Maggie Cheung bits just to see how she ends up in Paris in the first place.

Honestly though, given Landa's "abilities", it would be strange if he didn't know who she really was. I mean, it could be a scene that's supposed to set her off into "revenge mode", since she appeared to have no intention of carrying out a massacre before Landa showed up, but even without the extra dialog from the script, it felt like he was just playing with her because he could.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

so incredibly well-acted by Christoph Waltz, who steals the entire movie giving the best villain performance since Heath Ledger.

It reminded me of Ledger's performance too, even though the characters were nothing alike. But here's a thought for the sake of it - what about casting Waltz as The Riddler for the next Batman movie? It would add genuine menace to the character and he's probably one of the few actors capable of giving a performance that could fill Heath's boots. And he's hardly a Gorshin/ Carrey clone (though not a bad physical likeness for the former), so it would follow in Nolan's tradition of doing something a little different with his Batvillains.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Re: Inglourious Basterds (Quentin Tarantino, Brad Pitt) Grading/Discus

Re: Landa letting Shosanna go...

... In the script there's a scene right after that where Herrman asks Landa why he let her go, and he responds that no one else in town will be foolish enough to house her after learning what happened to her family, and that she has no money, nowhere to go, but joked that maybe she'll die, or maybe she'll escape to America and eventually become President of the United States. So my take on it? Landa figured she was dead anyway, and thought it would be more "fun" to have her escape knowing her predicament.

Which is kind of a reason that whole section of the movie doesn't work. How exactly does a Jewish girl in Nazi-occupied France come to have a movie theater and a new identity that can't be traced by the authorities?