In what ways is the Federation Fascist?

[Sci]

You either expand or you die. That's the way it is with all nations.

I mean... no. That's not the way it is with all nations in real life. Not at all. That is the logic of imperialists and colonialism.

Now, I certainly think that the logic that expanding into unclaimed, unsettled worlds without indigenous inhabitants is healthy for an interstellar society by allowing it to further develop its economy is fine. But the idea that it's necessary isn't even true in the ST Universe -- there are plenty of societies that seem confined to single star system that are doing fine.

Lots of countries have the death penalty for something.

And it's always unjust.

And while I normally am against the death penalty...in this case, I think it's called for. Or perhaps you'd care to admit that it might be just a little bit dangerous for the population of the Federation to gain access to the Talosians' mental abilities, and thus DESTROY itself?

I mean, the Talosians only developed those abilities over centuries. And after taking in Captain Pike, it seems clear that they have a level of mercy that wasn't previously understood. I would certainly hope that post-"Menagerie," the Federation rescinded its ridiculous Talos IV death penalty (which never really made sense and was only there to create a sense of false drama over Spock's hijacking of the Enterprise).

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is usually a duck...

• Powerful and Continuing Nationalism.
• Disregard for Human Rights.
• Identification of Enemies as a Unifying Cause.
• Supremacy of the Military.
• Widespread Sexism.
• Controlled Mass Media.
• Obsession with National Security.
• Religion and Government are Intertwined.

I think the US hits on seven of these eight identifiers of Fascism, or, at least, the Republican Party does.

Uhhh... no. If we really were fascist, you would wind up in a reeducation camp just for making a post like that. Or a mass grave.

Don't worry, the Republican Party is working on that.

Im reminded of the US before and after the Civil War. When the US first began (for those readers here unaware of US history) it was a collection of 13 independent states bound into a lose confederation where state's rights and sovereignty superceded the national government. The founding document wasn't the Constitution but the Articles of Confederation.

I mean... yes and no? It would be more accurate to say that under the Articles this was an unsettled question. The Confederation Congress would try to assert Confederation authority over the states, but they lacked enforcement powers, and so then states would assert authority. But then states weren't exactly powerful enough to just ignore the other states and Confederation, either -- which is why, ultimately, they decided to accede to the Union and ratify the Constitution rather than just go their own way as independent, sovereign states. It's not quite as simple as saying that "states' rights" superseded the authority of the Confederation.

Even at that, though, the individual states still viewed themselves as sovereign, at least in spirit. When the Civil War broke out in 1861 there were Generals and soldiers that would state their allegiances and their fighting loyalty to their individual home state. For example, General Lee (as the history lesson goes) fought for the Confederacy because his beloved home state of Virginia was part of the Confederacy.

Well, again, this is an over-simplification. Sure, some Confederates (not to be confused with the Confederation of the 1780s!) would talk about about "states' rights." But those same people were more than happy to completely trample over states' rights back when they had control over the U.S. government in the decades leading up to the Civil War. The Fugitive Slave Act completely violated states' rights, for instance. And while there had been some conflict over states' rights during the 1830s, that wasn't really the driving issue in the Civil War. The Confederate states all issued declarations of the causes of secession, and they were very blunt that they were seceding because they believed Abraham Lincoln was too great a threat to the preservation of slavery to stay in the Union.

To me this is how the Federation feels like. It's as if the UN suddenly became the sovereign power or centralized government that exercised final authority over the member states. Each nation (or planet) may have limited delegated authority over some aspects of their territory, but the Federation exercises final authority over the major governmental, political, or legal issues.

Which is right. You can't really have the benefits of an interstellar union without the central government having statehood.

The problems the Butterfly people had with the Federation stemmed from interactions prior to the burn. It's pretty much stated in dialogue that Federation did something to the alshain to be deemed untrustworthy. Ni'Var also considered the Federation untrustworthy. So it's clear that while the Federation was no means fascists, they were at the very least disingenuous in their dealings with both their members and species they were courting for membership

Not necessarily. The Ni'Var, for instance, were erroneous in their conclusion that the research the Federation had forced them to engage in was the cause of the Burn. It is entirely possible that the Alshain were erroneous in their evaluation of Federation conduct as duplicitous or disingenuous.

 

[Oddish]

Don't worry, the Republican Party is working on that.

Then they wouldn't be so eager to ensure that everyone has guns. Pretty hard to haul a guy off to a reeducation camp when he's shooting at you.

And it's always unjust.

Not sure I can agree with that. There are some truly vile criminals out there.

The Fugitive Slave Act completely violated states' rights, for instance.

I agree, that was disgusting. The Federal government essentially told all the Free states: "Congratulations! You're a Slave state now!"

 

[Phily B]

The Federation isn't fascist, if they were, they probably wouldn't struggle as much in war against powers who are inferior because they'd have no problem wiping them out or subjugating them because they're a threat. We see Starfleet holding back all the time. I imagine there were some war time policies that were touching upon fascism, I guess?

 

[The Wormhole]

The Federation isn't fascist, if they were, they probably wouldn't struggle as much in war against powers who are inferior because they'd have no problem wiping them out or subjugating them because they're a threat.

When has the Federation been to war against someone inferior to them? All the canon wars they've fought have been against enemies equally as powerful or more powerful.

And regardless, we do know that Starfleet has General Order 24, authorizing a starship to eradicate all life on a planet which is deemed to pose a threat to the ship and/or the Federation.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

When has the Federation been to war against someone inferior to them? All the canon wars they've fought have been against enemies equally as powerful or more powerful.

In the Season 1 DSC Klingon War we see that the spore drive is far superior to any drive tech that the Klingons have. We see a number of victories won off of the back of it.

 

[Phily B]

When has the Federation been to war against someone inferior to them? All the canon wars they've fought have been against enemies equally as powerful or more powerful.

And regardless, we do know that Starfleet has General Order 24, authorizing a starship to eradicate all life on a planet which is deemed to pose a threat to the ship and/or the Federation.

The Federation could have stomped the Cardassians and Talarians off the top of my head. The Cardassians crumbled against the Klingons who were on the other side of the quadrant, the Federation were on their doorstep and pulling their punches, while the Cardassians think it was some important war, for the Federation it was a border skirmish to the point where we didn't even hear about it in TNG until the episode. Look at the damage Captain Maxwell caused with a single ship just causing carnage. Talarians, enough said.

So many of these species are just small isolated powers compared to the Federation, that's why they're always willing to poke at the Federation know they're "weak". The Federation is rarely willing to escalate and always pushing for peace, even with the Dominion to a lesser extent they were always sending out feelers, though the Dominion were overwhelmingly stronger in that instance.

 

[Oddish]

Remember also that no one in the Federation knew that Section 31 existed for a long time. A fascist organization would have a much more prevalent secret police, and everyone would know about them even if no one dared talk about them openly. The fact that the organization's existence was a surprise suggests a distinct lack of fascism, communism, nazism, or other totalitarianism on the Federation's part.

 

[The Wormhole]

In the Season 1 DSC Klingon War we see that the spore drive is far superior to any drive tech that the Klingons have. We see a number of victories won off of the back of it.

The Klingons were still an equal power to the Federation, and indeed during the time Disco was stuck in the Mirror Universe the Klingons conquered 20% of the Federation and established a beachhead in the Sol system.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Federation gives people totally freedom to live their lives however they want, they make joining and leaving optional, and they supply medical aid and food to all takers for free. And from what we've seen, there's the equivalent of right to due process and freedom of the press.

So, no, it is nothing like fascism in any way whatsoever.

Even with section 31, that shows it's not as perfect a utopia as it claims to be. But section 31 isn't going around killing anyone who expresses a dissenting opinion, only actual threats to the Federation.

 

[Oddish]

Even with section 31, that shows it's not as perfect a utopia as it claims to be. But section 31 isn't going around killing anyone who expresses a dissenting opinion, only actual threats to the Federation.

I think that every large interstellar polity has an organization like S31: people who do what is necessary to solve problems, even if it bends the rules. The only ones who don't are organizations like the Dominion, who apparently have no rules to begin with.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think that every large interstellar polity has an organization like S31: people who do what is necessary to solve problems, even if it bends the rules. The only ones who don't are organizations like the Dominion, who apparently have no rules to begin with.

The problem in practice is that the definition of necessary is made without oversight or due process.

Sure, you can agree when the freedom of the entire quadrant is at stake, the ends justify the means, but it was obvious in Inter Arma Silent Leges their schemes were not limited to necessary self defense.

 

[Weyoun 251]

In the Season 1 DSC Klingon War we see that the spore drive is far superior to any drive tech that the Klingons have. We see a number of victories won off of the back of it.

You'd then counter that with cloaking tech being far beyond anything the Fed have

 

[Birb-of-Prey]

It isn't. You want fascism, move to the Cardassian Union or Romulan Star Empire.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I would acttually peg the Romulans as extreme left wing, not right…

So there is an ‘ism’ at play here - just the opposite one.

 

[Ragitsu]

I think that every large interstellar polity has an organization like S31: people who do what is necessary to solve problems, even if it bends the rules. The only ones who don't are organizations like the Dominion, who apparently have no rules to begin with.

Eff Section 31: it is a blight on the optimistic future of Star Trek (specifically, The Federation).

 

[fireproof78]

Which is why its inclusion makes sense. Just like the "Drumhead" showcases what fear can do and what a more appropriate response to a threat is, so too can Section 31 be used to show how it's methodology is incompatible with the Federation is supposedly is trying to defend.

It may be a blight on the Federation but I say it is a necessary storytelling one. Something to overcome rather than just ignore and say "Oh, in the Federation nothing bad ever happens and we don't have people who react negatively to hostile actors." It shows the wide array of possibilities in confronting danger.

 

[Kor]

S31 as depicted in DS9 and ENT seemed to be this rogue, underground cabal that didn't answer to anyone, not something that was actually officially sanctioned by the Federation or Starfleet. Sure, there was the occasional admiral who was in cahoots with them, but there has long been a tendency for Starfleet flag officers to go on these power trips and do what they want to do, with little regard for propriety or Starfleet ideals or whatever. Like that one admiral who demoted the captain of the Enterprise so he could take the center seat himself even though he wasn't even familiar with how everything worked on the ship after the refit.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

S31 as depicted in DS9 and ENT seemed to be this rogue, underground cabal that didn't answer to anyone, not something that was actually officially sanctioned by the Federation or Starfleet.

I doubt it is official sanctioned anyway. It exists in some ways, and is ignored in other ways. It always struck me as the arm inside Starfleet Intelligence that felt things had to be done a certain way, off the books. Some worked out and others were ignored or disavowed.

 

[valkyrie013]

The Federation due to scale HAS to be a weak central government, with strong "States". The Federation is just to big to run from 1 central place. 1000 light years across, that HUGE, Literally takes most of a year to transverse. Even if you do it over subspace, still takes days sometimes weeks to get a reply back. So it pretty much has to be a loose assembly of planets for it to work as a democratic system.

Now, if the Fed was Fascist, they would have taken a page out of Star Wars, and how the empire runs the place. You have the Central government, then you would have regional/sector "Governors" that live on a central planet in there sector, then you would have "Governors" of individual systems.
These Governors would tow the company line, and enforce central planning edicts from on high. Individual planets, or species wouldn't have a say. Your in our territory, here's our rules, which can change on a whim, get use to it. I would say the Klingons and Romulans, or other "Bad Actor" States have this kind of system.

Now, we haven't heard of any "Regional Governors" or any type of "Lord" that is installed in charge of a species or planet system, they still have there own style of government, there own laws ( which is probably the same in general if your a member, think of the US, each state has its own laws, but in general 90% of the laws are the same country wide) If the planet or species whats to break from the Feds, they can, no one is holding a gun to there head.

Now are most planets on some type of Socialism or Communism track? Yep. But the government owning everything isn't Fascist. Theres no bulldozing of opposition, no dictatorial leaders, no exhaulting the Federation over the individual, no one making people work. Almost NOTHING Federation is Fascist.

 

[Citiprime]

The only places the Federation arguably gets scary is when it comes to bodily autonomy.

From what we've seen on-screen:

• The Federation enforces discrimination against the genetically engineered, which means that people can be punished for actions, and not have "equal protection under the law" because of choices that they had no hand in making and were made before they were even born. Denying an entire class of people the right to serve in Starfleet (and maybe other areas of government and society), even though we've seen that not every augment becomes an egomaniac, seems like discrimination based out of fear and stereotyping, which given the events depicted in season 1 of Picard was the type of thinking expanded to artificial lifeforms too.
• In multiple episodes of both Deep Space Nine and TNG, as well as STV: The Final Frontier, the Federation seems to take a dim view of assisted suicide, especially medically assisted suicide. It's arguably the one hot-button social issue of the past few decades where Star Trek takes a more conservative position. Both Bashir and Crusher are shown being either disgusted or outraged by requests to commit medically assisted suicide, and Dr. McCoy's assistance of his father's death is shown with painful regret.

One of the things that's never really touched on, since how the Federation works is left vague for obvious reasons, but would the Federation council have political parties like we know them in the present day?

If I was the leader of a new world offered membership, I think I would be concerned that my world would be a small voice in a chorus dominated by Earth. For all we know, Earth, Vulcan, and the other founding members have a large block of votes that directs policy within the Federation Council.