In the Pale Moonlight turns 25

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by DS9forever, Apr 19, 2023.

  1. DS9forever

    DS9forever Commodore Commodore

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  2. plebotamus

    plebotamus Ensign Newbie

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    I can learn to live with it.
     
  3. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    If your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal who was going to be executed anyway, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain.
     
  4. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But did the Romulans ever find it out in those 25 years?
     
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  5. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    If they were still doing DS9, the Romulans finding out and what happened after that would have been a good idea for Season 8.
     
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  6. somebuddyX

    somebuddyX Commodore Commodore

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    I think a novel called "Hollow Men" and separately some new DS9 comic deals with people finding out.
    But personally, I think it never gets found out. I hope it doesn't. They did a bad thing and they got away it. The audience is the only one that knows and it's up to us to decide what we think.
    I really like it and it's one of my favourites and definitely one of DS9's best. I was young when I watched it the first time, so I don't remember finding it all that controversial then but come to appreciate it more over the years. Some of the more minor parts I like about it are when Sisko and Garak are going to meet Vreenak and Garak's glee at Worf being out of the loop and Sisko bribing Quark. Someone here pointed out that how Vreenak might have secretly been impressed by Sisko in thinking he was taller, like he was this larger than life character, and that's why he's so pissed when he realises it's a fffff-orgery. I'm a bit of an asshole in that I take a bit of glee in that the Romulans are meant to be sneaky and super spies and last two seasons of DS9 the Federation beats them at their own game twice.
     
  7. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Then again, knowing how paranoid the Romulans are I wouldn't be surprised to learn they had their tendrils deep enough into Starfleet to actually have known, and still play along with it for reasons of their own (for example the realisation that long-term the Dominion would be the greater threat to them as well).... and then still have a trump card to play towards the Federation at some convenient moment in the future when they 'find out' about it and can gain an important concession they otherwise couldn't have gotten that way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2023
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  8. johnjm22

    johnjm22 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not only one of the best episodes of Star Trek, but just one of the best episode of television ever IMO.

    I have mixed feelings about the premise, but the writing and acting are irresistibly good.
     
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  9. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's why I think even if they found out, they would actually respect them for doing things like a Romulan would :D
     
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  10. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Is Starfleet so insecure that the Romulans would hear? The only people who know are Sisko (and he's with the Founders) and Garak. Several others know small parts of the story but not the central deception. Odo knows a Romulan ship docked and then blew up as it was leaving, and that Sisko wanted the charges against Tolar dropped.
    Gowron knew Sisko wanted Tolar and presumably knew what line of business he was in. (But Gowron is dead by the show finale too.) People at Starfleet Command who were cleared for Sisko's top secret proposal.

    They might well keep the secret for many years, even forever.
     
  11. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    The Romulans might respect them a bit, but that would not in any way stop them for cashing it in for some favor they need.
     
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  12. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Everything about this episode was just perfect. The writing, the acting, the direction.

    So many subtle things made it even more effective, like Sisko slowly taking off his uniform as he undresses his feelings. Or how Vreenak first thought the kali fel was only a good 'approximation', until Sisko made even stronger points and he takes another sip and says that for a moment he thought it was the real deal, signaling he was becoming a bit more convinced.

    Or the final scene with Garak... notice as Garak was explaining why he thought Sisko came to him, he started off over one of Sisko's shoulders and suddenly, as he explains the cost in lives and self respect and let his conscience be soothed that it was to save the quadrant, he is on the other shoulder. Very much like an angel and a devil on Sisko's shoulders, and Garak essentially played both parts.

    This truly is an episode that should be broken down in film school and each part used as a teachable session.
     
  13. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh my, I have to watch that scene again and focus on head positions :D
     
  14. Jellico

    Jellico Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I recently saw this episode. I was having a tough week and my wife gave me the remote for the whole week. We watched DS9 and we came upon this one. I loved The Whole Dominion War story line and this is one of the best episodes on that story. There were many minor takeaways from this. Garak got beaten up by Sisko, but he did do one good block. Sisko is a great fighter but Garak let him self take that particular beating. What did the Romulus Senator say? “IT’S A FAKE!”
     
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  15. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I expect Garak's training in hand-to-hand is better than Sisko's. He could have given at least as good as he got, but calm, practical Garak saw no reason to antagonize Sisko any more than he already was.
     
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  16. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think Garak could have beaten Sisko, but he did let him get one more punch before telling Sisko his rationale. He knew just fighting Sisko would lead nowhere, so as a measure of self-preservation (something Garak is an expert on), he just let Sisko get that last angry punch and then explain.

    It's easier to explain yourself when you aren't poking the bear.
     
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  17. Mad_Jasper

    Mad_Jasper Ensign Red Shirt

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    One of the best episodes of any tv show. It is a master class on acting and writing.

    Edit: Apologies to johnjm22. I typed this before reading your comment.
     
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  18. no2catsuitKira

    no2catsuitKira Commander Red Shirt

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    In my top two of DS9. Probably depends on the day whether it is #1 or #2.
     
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  19. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Of course Garak had that pain-suppressing implant from the Obsidian Order, so getting punched out by Sisko wouldn't be that bad, right? Come to think of it, he would have had it when the Klingons in Way of the Warrior punched him out too.
     
  20. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They removed that implant in S2 IIRC.