In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

[R. Star]

My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.

 

[KaraBear]

My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.

you're assuming they'r an aggressive species, that they would attack first then ask questions. If they're a peacful race then they wouldn't want to inflict unecessary damage

 

[Yanks]

My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.

I think they were worried about us popping in their domain and releasing those little buggers.

 

[KaraBear]

My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.

I think they were worried about us popping in their domain and releasing those little buggers.

I think so.

8472 had every reason to assume the worst about the federation. First we side with the borg in their war (as far as they're concerned), shoot at them with the nanoprobe weapons, then we send an injured helpless member of their species over to the hirogen ship to be tortured and killed. Of course they're worried about the federation

 

[Hartzilla2007]

My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.

you're assuming they'r an aggressive species, that they would attack first then ask questions. If they're a peacful race then they wouldn't want to inflict unecessary damage

"The weak shall perish" doesn't exactly sound like something a peaceful race would be going around saying.

 

[KaraBear]

My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.

you're assuming they'r an aggressive species, that they would attack first then ask questions. If they're a peacful race then they wouldn't want to inflict unecessary damage

"The weak shall perish" doesn't exactly sound like something a peaceful race would be going around saying.

maybe
or maybe they were just acting that way to what they percieved to be an enemy

 

[R. Star]

To be fair... it would be an injustice to judge all people by what one of them says in the heat of battle. What if that was Patton out there running his mouth saying something inflammatory for example, would you think all Americans are blowhards who want to conquer the world?

The only thing 8472 is guilty of is maybe using excessive force to defend themselves.

 

[Yanks]

My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.

I think they were worried about us popping in their domain and releasing those little buggers.

I think so.

8472 had every reason to assume the worst about the federation. First we side with the borg in their war (as far as they're concerned), shoot at them with the nanoprobe weapons, then we send an injured helpless member of their species over to the hirogen ship to be tortured and killed. Of course they're worried about the federation

True, humans have proven to be anything but stable.

I think I remember Boothby bringing up those nanaprobes in negotiation with Janeway as well.

 

[KaraBear]

To be fair... it would be an injustice to judge all people by what one of them says in the heat of battle. What if that was Patton out there running his mouth saying something inflammatory for example, would you think all Americans are blowhards who want to conquer the world?

The only thing 8472 is guilty of is maybe using excessive force to defend themselves.

don't you go agreeing with me again

 

[The Overlord]

My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.

you're assuming they'r an aggressive species, that they would attack first then ask questions. If they're a peacful race then they wouldn't want to inflict unecessary damage

If they were not aggressive, why was Kes saying that they are extreme social Darwinists who felt like they had the right to cleanse of the universe of all "inferior, weaker" species?

Just because they were not the aggressors in the conflict with the Borg, doesn't make them good guys.

It really makes Kes and the rest of the Voyager crew seem really stupid for allying with the Borg in the scorpion, if Species 8472 were not as evil as Kes made them out to be.

To be fair... it would be an injustice to judge all people by what one of them says in the heat of battle. What if that was Patton out there running his mouth saying something inflammatory for example, would you think all Americans are blowhards who want to conquer the world?

The only thing 8472 is guilty of is maybe using excessive force to defend themselves.

Why didn't Kes pick up the feelings of any other members of Species 8472, who weren't having extreme social Darwinist genocidal thoughts. Why were they thinking about intergalactic genocide, when they had a grudge against the Borg and no one else?

Imagine if in Dr. who, the Daleks just decided that they really didn't want to commit intergalactic genocide, that was a misunderstanding, wouldn't that undermine everything we knew about them and ruin them in the process?

This whole thing comes off as a sloppy retcon, Species 8472 goes from scary, dogmatic, genocidal, social Darwinists into scared little sheep who were just misunderstood, those are not the same characters, no matter what kind of logical back flips you try to use to justify this change, its a change and it comes out of nowhere.

 

[R. Star]

Kes talked to maybe two or three of them. All of them piloting those bioships. I doubt a soldier flying a single person ship is going to be representative of the whole species. That's like reading the mind of an air force pilot in combat thinking, "Kill all those mfers!" and drawing the conclusion they're going to commit genocide.

Hate to say it, but Voyager was the aggressor with 8472. They tried tractoring their ship, beaming it away, and boarded it without permission. Then they were later seen collaborating with their enemy. Helped them design a biological weapon of mass destruction oh and handed one of their people over to a race of savages that probably disemboweled the fellow. So yeah... some aggressive tendencies towards Voyager are probably to be expected from the people doing the fighting.

 

[The Overlord]

Kes talked to maybe two or three of them. All of them piloting those bioships. I doubt a soldier flying a single person ship is going to be representative of the whole species. That's like reading the mind of an air force pilot in combat thinking, "Kill all those mfers!" and drawing the conclusion they're going to commit genocide.

But why were they thinking about killing all "inferior species" rather then just killing the Borg, why didn't Kes ever sense an alien who was thinking more rational thoughts or even someone who was just directing their hatred against the Borg? This really makes the Voyager look like idiots in Scorpion, if Kes just read the minds of few aliens and determined they were all bad and Janeway just took her at her word on that, its just bad writing, a retcon that made the crew seem incompetent.

Hate to say it, but Voyager was the aggressor with 8472. They tried tractoring their ship, beaming it away, and boarded it without permission. Then they were later seen collaborating with their enemy. Helped them design a biological weapon of mass destruction oh and handed one of their people over to a race of savages that probably disemboweled the fellow. So yeah... some aggressive tendencies towards Voyager are probably to be expected from the people doing the fighting.

Hitler was the aggressor towards Stalin in WWII, that doesn't instantly make Stalin a good guy. The way Species 8472 was presented in Scorpion, made seem like they wanted to commit intergalactic genocide, there was no hint that they were scared little sheep that were just scared for their lives. That plot point came out of nowhere in "In The Flesh", doesn't work because it had no build up and seems to contradict Scorpion.

 

[JarodRussell]

The more you get to know your enemy, the more human, or "neutered" he becomes. That's basically what happens in real life, and that's what happens in storytelling when you keep re-using the same enemy over and over again.

The Borg, Hirogen, Species 8472, Vidians, they all lost their touch sooner or later.

 

[Yanks]

The more you get to know your enemy, the more human, or "neutered" he becomes. That's basically what happens in real life, and that's what happens in storytelling when you keep re-using the same enemy over and over again.

The Borg, Hirogen, Species 8472, Vidians, they all lost their touch sooner or later.

The point here is I believe...

With species 8472 it happened to fast.

 

[Anwar]

Well, maybe if the audience weren't so upset over there being a single species able to fight the Borg they could've done more with them.

 

[The Overlord]

Well, maybe if the audience weren't so upset over there being a single species able to fight the Borg they could've done more with them.

I disagree, having a villain more powerful then the Borg is exciting and makes for a very scary villains. But you don't have them go from monsters to scared little sheep in the course of an episode.

 

[Yanks]

Well, maybe if the audience weren't so upset over there being a single species able to fight the Borg they could've done more with them.

Who was upset?

 

[Anwar]

Voy-Haters who keep saying Voyager ruined the Borg. There being a single species out there that could fight the Borg and win in a normal fight is where they keep saying the Borg lost all threat whatsoever.

That these creatures were super-powerful aliens from another dimension didn't matter to them, they had such ridiculous ideas of the Borg being some super-duper-threat (they are not) that there being ONE species out there that could fight them totally destroyed their image.

Worse, since it was VOY that created these new aliens, it was just another mark against the show. If it had been TNG or DS9 that created the 8472 aliens no one would care, but since it was VOY it was just another thing to "blame" the show for.

 

[R. Star]

You know Anwar, you talk about that more than these so called VOY-haters you're describing.

 

[Yanks]

Voy-Haters who keep saying Voyager ruined the Borg. There being a single species out there that could fight the Borg and win in a normal fight is where they keep saying the Borg lost all threat whatsoever.

That these creatures were super-powerful aliens from another dimension didn't matter to them, they had such ridiculous ideas of the Borg being some super-duper-threat (they are not) that there being ONE species out there that could fight them totally destroyed their image.

Worse, since it was VOY that created these new aliens, it was just another mark against the show. If it had been TNG or DS9 that created the 8472 aliens no one would care, but since it was VOY it was just another thing to "blame" the show for.