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"In some ways you're even worse than the Borg!"

The Maquis organization did not yet exist at that time, nor can we prove that people who later became Maquis (and that is NOT everyone living on those planets) were the ones who made the decision to stay under Cardassian rule. What we see in Journey's End are the political/spiritual leaders of a particular world making that decision. But even before they chose to stay, the Federation had already negotiated and decided that one way or the other, the Cardassians were going to get those worlds. And that's where I see the "poker chip" thing.

Like I said, I think the Maquis tactics were unacceptable. But I think the grievance was legit.
 
The Maquis were doomed from day one. Sisko was dead-on when he told Eddington he was selling people a dream that could never be fulfilled. The treaties were signed. The planets were ceded. The Maquis did not have the firepower nor the organization to stand up to Cardassia. While the Federation treated them as criminals, hunting them down for prosecution, the Cardassians (and later, the Dominion) had much less affection for legal pretense, and just preferred to wipe them out. Ironically, the border colonists might have been better off had the Maquis never been formed. It's debatable whether the Maquis really drove the Cardassians to the Dominion, but they obviously played a part.
 
nor can we prove that people who later became Maquis (and that is NOT everyone living on those planets) were the ones who made the decision to stay under Cardassian rule.

It seems fairly obvious that they were. Besides, if the original colonists had been moved out of the way (as was the original plan), the later ones would probably also have been. Problem solved.

In any case, the reasoning is the same: The Maquis colonists could have moved. They chose not to. Why should they avoid all responsibility for staying behind? 'They don't want to abandon their homes,' you might say. Argument invalid, since there is a near-infinite amount of living space in the Federation, and their existing homes can be replicated and recreated exactly as they were.
 
Fairly obvious on what grounds? Yes, you have Chakotay participating in the Maquis, so obviously some people from Dorvan got in on the act, but where does anyone in that episode ever say they're going to take up arms against the Cardassians or encourage anybody else to do it? We don't have any proof of who exactly started it. Maybe they were the political leaders--or maybe they weren't. Claiming they had to be is an assertion with no backing--as is referring to every DMZ resident as a "Maquis colonist" when again only a select group took up arms.

Just because there's a lot of living space available doesn't make it THEIR living space. That colony in particular had a belief that their land was sacred, and even without the religious significance, your home cannot be exactly replicated. And even if you can get a very close similarity to the place that you left, it still is not justified to just trade somebody's home over to a foreign government without any sort of consideration for the fact that people live there, and then demand they clear out of there. (That demand was dropped--but still, how would you like your home to be handed over to [insert unfriendly nation here] as some sort of political settlement?)
 
Bajor wanted to join the Federation, it was Sisko's job to get back on their feet enough to do it. They did and they were ready but he told them not to when he foresaw the Dominion War in "Rapture" so they waited till after the war to do it.

Bajor didn't want to join the Federation at the time of Emissary when Sisko got the order. Can't retcon the situation from 5 years into the future into the Sisko's shady order from Picard in Emissary.
 
I always felt that the Borg and the Federation had a similar mind set in that they both seemed to see joining their society as something that improved cultures/planets and that a certain amount of group unity was a good thing. Where they differ was in their actions, the Borg forced their ideals on people/cultures/planets, where as the Federation tried to convince potential candidates and would leave if the answer was no.

The Borg to me were a dark version of the Federation, a comparsion between communist and socialist societies. Thats one of the things that made them scary they were us if we lost control of ourselves.
 
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Bajor wanted to join the Federation, it was Sisko's job to get back on their feet enough to do it. They did and they were ready but he told them not to when he foresaw the Dominion War in "Rapture" so they waited till after the war to do it.

Bajor didn't want to join the Federation at the time of Emissary when Sisko got the order. Can't retcon the situation from 5 years into the future into the Sisko's shady order from Picard in Emissary.

"Prepare the planet to join the Federation" = Get the planet up to standard that if they petition to join we can say "yes". Even if they still say no (there had to be elements that were pro-Federation in the government) they'll at least be well off enough to manage themselves.

It's all in context.
 
I disagree with that.

Picard was ordering the Sisko to make Bajor sign on the line that is dotted. Not to "make them ready so if they will ask us to join we can say yes." Picard could have said all that too if that's what the Federation wanted. But he didn't.
 
It's a context thing, to a Starfleet Officer or a Fed Official "Have their planet be good enough to join the Federation" means bringing them up to galactic standards of what a good world is. It's like a "Make a 3rd world country a 2nd or 1st world country" type deal.
 
Eddington was right, in so far as the assimilationist ways of the Federation. That he is right is what makes him a compelling villain- there's some truth to his complaints- the Borg and the Federation have similar ends (they differ in degree only, even if it's by a LOT of degrees). But, as Quark says, the Federation does not assimilate using violence, but is more like root beer. The means are totally different, and that REALLY matters. That Eddington can be so crazily extreme in ignoring the methods the two use and identifying the extreme of Borg assimilation with Federation cultural assimilation is WHY he's a villain.
A small degree of truth to your complaint doesn't give you carte blanche- those that take it as such make themselves villains. MY neighbour's dog may shit on my lawn, but that doesn't mean I can make a just claim to killing the dog and assaulting the owner.
 
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Like I said, Eddington had delusions of heroism and needed to justify himself in doing so by vilifying the "enemy". So he made up a BS argument over how the Feds are evil Borg-lite so he could go around attacking and killing Starfleeters and not feel bad.

Then, when the Feds started acting like the villains he made them out to be we saw how fast he caved in. It was easier when it was more play-fighting, but when he drove them to act the way he made them out to act Eddington's delusions collapsed around him.
 
Eddington was right, in so far as the assimilationist ways of the Federation. That he is right is what makes him a compelling villain- there's some truth to his complaints- the Borg and the Federation have similar ends (they differ in degree only, even if it's by a LOT of degrees). But, as Quark says, the Federation does not assimilate using violence, but is more like root beer. The means are totally different, and that REALLY matters. That Eddington can be so crazily extreme in ignoring the methods the two use and identifying the extreme of Borg assimilation with Federation cultural assimilation is WHY he's a villain.
A small degree of truth to your complaint doesn't give you carte blanche- those that take it as such make themselves villains. MY neighbour's dog may shit on my lawn, but that doesn't mean I can make a just claim to killing the dog and assaulting the owner.

Exactly! I've been getting the impression that some people think I agree with the Maquis just because I think their complaint is valid. Just because I think they've got a legitimate gripe does not mean I endorse the tactics used to deal with that beef.
 
I honestly think Star Trek VI provides a pretty good frame for this thread. A good chunk of the plot was about whether or not the mighty Klingon Empire would be ready for peace with the Federation -- because that could signal the end of Klingon tradition. That's very much hegemonic fear that faces modern-day globalization, and the thing that Eddington really meant.

Now, am I siding with Chang and his fellow conspirators? Or Eddington and Co.? Of course not. But I think a valid point was hit upon by Azetbhur: if the Federation is so welcoming of a variety of aliens, why is it primarily run by humans? Why is everything up to human standards? Who SETS the standard, and why must everyone be subjected to, again, "inalienable human rights?" Is that idea not hypocritical to IDIC, That in the vastness of space, the morals of humanity are the morals the rest of the galaxy should follow?

That's not the outright tone in much of Trek, but you have to admit, whenever there's a spark of violence between two alien cultures and our heroes have to intervene, it's always through human ingenuity or trickery or solution. Whenever there's a mysterious, powerful alien entity out there, it's always Human Nature that ends up satisfying the creature or letting our heroes evade certain death. Humanity always comes out, humanity is supreme, and if you don't join us, well tough luck, you're not getting into Perfection. To me, that's a valid point that helps the "Federation = Borg" argument. Heck, even TNG/DS9/VOY Earth was basically Eden with flying shuttles. That's much prettier than what the Borg have, but to the Borg, a hive-mind IS Eden, so in essence, there's no difference there. Join Paradise, or else.

However, whatever these arguments are, there's always a proper way to bring them to the table. Eddington's way of reverse-psychology and guerilla tactics of realistically unmitigated violence is a big no no. Chang's assassination squad is a no no. Yet Ahzetbur, the one who brought up some of the most damning charges in the movie, is the one who truly does lead her people to peace with the Federation. Someone like Chakotay, who hated the Federation to the core, ultimately came to embrace it because he got to see the good people that it bore. So then, to me, it seems that the perfect counter to the whole "Federation = Borg" argument is that the Federation leads by example.

(that being said, forget the whole "Destroy whole fleets" aspect of the Borg analogy. For one thing, Eddington was clearly talking metaphorically, not literally. In no way was he ever comparing Borg advancements in space and technology or any other such silly thing. The whole Sisko Vs. Eddington arc focused on ideology, not just capability. Any argument saying, "Well, the Feds never built a huge-ass Cube!" conveniently forgets the context)

Ultimately, it comes down to differences of opinion (that whole pesky IDIC again. If your radical ideas are shot down, is there true tolerance in a society?). I would think that in some regard that Eddington won a lot of points when he faced off against Sisko. Not because of the Fed/Borg analogy, but because he provoked discussion, which is what a political minority tries to do. A lot of the villains in DS9 were never meant to be black-and-white mustache-twirling types, and Eddington is no different, but the fact that there's discussion about the nature of the Federation both within Trek and outside, I'd have to say that he achieved one of his goals: raising awareness of a problem (albeit in tragically misguided ways).
 
Yes, you have Chakotay participating in the Maquis, so obviously some people from Dorvan got in on the act

Umm, what does Chakotay have to do with Dorvan V? As far as we know, he never set foot on that planet, or knew anybody there.

His father lived on some Federation colony or another near the DMZ. By default, that cannot have been Dorvan V, because Dorvan V was not "near the DMZ". By the time the DMZ came into being, Dorvan V was in Cardassian space and no longer a Federation colony at all.

That is, unless something changed after "Journey's End" and before "Preemptive Strike"/"The Maquis". In the former, there was no DMZ ambiguity, only clear-cut UFP and Cardassian space - the very aim of the treaty had been to avoid astrographical ambiguity, hence the mass deportations. But perhaps as the result of the events in "Journey's End", UFP colonies began to demand a say and special status and whatnot, and the treaty was renegotiated to feature the DMZ? Chakotay's family probably still wouldn't come from Dorvan V, though.

Timo Saloniemi
 
OK, from what I'm reading about the DMZ, while those planets were put in Cardassian space, it WAS supposed to be a no-weapons area, which constituted the DMZ.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Demilitarized_Zone

In the case of Dorvan V, you could be right, depending on where exactly the planet is, and whether or not it lies beyond the DMZ in Cardassian space that DOES allow weapons, or not. Not sure we have any proof of it, so I'd say both ideas are possible.

Now, while non-canon, we do have a statement in the Voyager relaunch novels that Chakotay did in fact come from Dorvan V, so I believe the possibility is at least open.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Dorvan_V
 
If people would take off their blinders they could see Eddington's point. Normally, those who go against the grain are looked upon as "nutters", but I could very well see Eddington's comparison of the Federation and The Borg. Both tend to assimilate others through various means.
 
Of course, assimilation or subjugation is a universal attribute of expanding empires, not something unique to the Borg and the UFP. In the 20th century, Eddington would have been comparing the UFP to the Nazis, because that was the epitome of conquest-minded "badguyness" at the time, or perhaps to the Commies. In the 24th, it would only stand to reason that people would promote the Borg into the ultimate villain status and call their worst opponents "Borg".

With the Nazis, there were all sorts of irrelevant but related phenomena that were used to support the claim that the opponent was comparable to the worst possible villain imaginable. Something as meaningless as fancy-saluting, or trains-running-in-time, could be promoted as the common link. In the 24th century, people wanting to call their opponents names would strive to find excuses to use "assimilation" the way people in the past century would have used "goose-stepping" - an essentially meaningless issue that still serves as the token connection.

I don't see any significant support for Eddington's claim that the UFP is especially geared towards assimilation/conquest/viking, or whatever the term on whatever century. I merely see the trivial acknowledgement that yes, the UFP, the Borg, the Cardassians and probably everybody else but the Halkans is involved in assimilation/conquest/viking as a matter of course. It's not a particularly defining trait for the UFP, though.

OK, from what I'm reading about the DMZ, while those planets were put in Cardassian space, it WAS supposed to be a no-weapons area, which constituted the DMZ.

Accounts vary on whether planets within the DMZ would be in UFP or CU space or in some sort of neutral limbo. We know the status of some individual planets there (that is, some are explicated as being under UFP jurisdiction), but in most Maquis episodes such status is not clearly indicated. The Memory Alpha article gives the false impression that the Zone was established and its nature discussed in "Journey's End" already, while in fact it was only introduced in "Preemptive Strike"/"The Maquis" and never really discussed.

I'm not very happy with the idea of Chakotay's father Kolopak living and dying on Dorvan V, as the people there didn't exactly put up the sort of fight in which Kolopak could have been killed. I guess it's possible that the situation there changed later on - but the description of Dorvan V as "a Federation colony close to the DMZ" could never hold true literally. Perhaps it is shorthand for "a former Federation colony close to the DMZ but in Cardassian space", though?

Timo Saloniemi
 
I would suspect--if the DMZ is set up at all like the one at the 38th Parallel between the 2 Koreas. If so, that would mean it has two distinct sides, both of which are definitely considered to fall under a specific jurisdiction: that half the DMZ is considered Federation territory and the other half considered Cardassian territory. Dorvan would likely fall on the Cardassian side from the descriptions we've had--making it both a DMZ world and a Cardassian-ruled world.

In the case of the Korean DMZ, if that is the parallel we're intended to draw (no pun intended), the DMZ was established right away as part of the armistice at the end of major hostilities. (The one difference, historically, is that there was never any formal treaty ending the Korean War, only a prolonged cease-fire.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38th_parallel_north

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Demilitarized_Zone

I see no problem with the situation on Dorvan changing if the Cardassians did something that inflamed the public ire. Imagine if they desecrated a particularly sacred site, interfered with religious practice, executed/tortured people without due process, displaced the population to settle Cardassians on the best land, or any number of other things. That would set things off in a hurry.
 
if the Federation is so welcoming of a variety of aliens, why is it primarily run by humans? Why is everything up to human standards?

Maybe there are simply more humans than any other race, in Starfleet (and the Federation). I would chalk that up to a simple coincidence, really. Any alien race who is a Federation member, is welcome to join Starfleet. If they want to bitch about how many humans there are in it, let them join more of their races up! You can't condemn the majority for simply existing.
 
The Maquis were doomed from day one. Sisko was dead-on when he told Eddington he was selling people a dream that could never be fulfilled. The treaties were signed. The planets were ceded. The Maquis did not have the firepower nor the organization to stand up to Cardassia. While the Federation treated them as criminals, hunting them down for prosecution, the Cardassians (and later, the Dominion) had much less affection for legal pretense, and just preferred to wipe them out. Ironically, the border colonists might have been better off had the Maquis never been formed. It's debatable whether the Maquis really drove the Cardassians to the Dominion, but they obviously played a part.
The war with the Klingons drove the Cardassians to the Dominion more than the Maquis did. When the Dominion came, the Cardassians used their newfound muscle to take out the Maquis, something they never would have done had the Dominion not been there.

I also agree with the Jem'Hadar in the episode "The Jem'Hadar" about the treaty between the Federation and the Cardassians. It proved to be a mistake that led to war anyway.

Eddington is right about the Federation assimilating worlds. When you really look at it, that's what they're doing.
 
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