In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlock?

[Guy Gardener]

Fury changed everything.

I assumed that every episode made after Fury was set in the new timeline constructed during the course of Fury where the beautiful Sam Wildeman devised a method of flooding Voyager with enough toxic agents to decimate the Vidiians while leaving the healthy crewmen aboard Voyager feeling dandy.

There was a boarding part of 300 Vidiians aboard Voyager in Deadlock, however with Voyager being able to amp it's toxicity levels so easily as to fry the Vidiians, then the boarding party could have been outnumbers the Voyager 6 to one and it would have still been an inconsequential advantage.

Both ships might have survived somehow, or one of the Janeway's might have had to commit suicide as the original plan laid out? Anythign might have happened... And in Resolutions, Tuvok wouldn't have been hesitant about confronting that Vidiian convoy to find a cure for Janeway and Chakotay.

What else?

 

[exodus]

Fury never happens because Janeway and Tuvok using Kes' hologram stop her from going back in time the second time around.

Kes never goes back in time, so Wildman doesn't create any toxic anything.

 

[Christopher]

Guy Gardener said:
Fury changed everything.

I assumed that every episode made after Fury was set in the new timeline constructed during the course of Fury where the beautiful Sam Wildeman devised a method of flooding Voyager with enough toxic agents to decimate the Vidiians while leaving the healthy crewmen aboard Voyager feeling dandy.

There was a boarding part of 300 Vidiians aboard Voyager in Deadlock, however with Voyager being able to amp it's toxicity levels so easily as to fry the Vidiians, then the boarding party could have been outnumbers the Voyager 6 to one and it would have still been an inconsequential advantage.

The Vidiians are very skilled at medical sciences. It's easy enough to assume they soon developed a countermeasure to the toxins.

 

[Turbo]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

exodus said:
Fury never happens because Janeway and Tuvok using Kes' hologram stop her from going back in time the second time around.

Kes never goes back in time, so Wildman doesn't create any toxic anything.

But if she never goes back in time, then there would be no reason to create the hologram, but then she'd go back in time because there is no hologram, but then she wouldn't go back...and there would be no holo...gram...but...she would...then...back...go...

OW! My brain just overloaded!

Let's all just say "I hate time travel" and move on.

 

[exodus]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Turbo said:

exodus said:
Fury never happens because Janeway and Tuvok using Kes' hologram stop her from going back in time the second time around.

Kes never goes back in time, so Wildman doesn't create any toxic anything.

But if she never goes back in time, then there would be no reason to create the hologram, but then she'd go back in time because there is no hologram, but then she wouldn't go back...and there would be no holo...gram...but...she would...then...back...go...

OW! My brain just overloaded!

Let's all just say "I hate time travel" and move on.

Kes had come back from the future to the past. The hologram was made in the past to stop Kes in the future from altering the past........is the future.......is ithe past........is the future........A leads to B leads to C leads back to A. Remember Future's End? It's a time loop that had to be broken.

Yeah, time travel does suck.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

The Braxton who told us that time was a rigid set of predestinations in Futures End had the dominance of his timeline by the end of Futures End II supplanted by a Braxton with superior technology who said that they can scan alternate/parallel timelines which leads to the acceptance of branch theory that there are an infinite amout of B's resulting from A and so on until not all C's lead back to A which is exactly what happened in not he episode.

Further more in Relativity the crazy Braxton there said that he had been integrated with the Braxton who had spent 20 years in a nut house on 20th century Earth. So that this Braxton was a composite of both Braxtons seen in Futures End II, and no evidence or memories of artifacts or people vanished just because the Voyager no longer Destroyed the the 29th century just because that was no longer the most potential future available, if in fact it ever was.

The same rules apply to the two timelines seen in Fury. Traveling through time and penetrating the consistency of the past creates a new timeline which can be magnificently or negligibly different from the one you are used to being a part of. Braxton said that other timelines exist. Incontinuity doesn't destroy future history, it just makes it inaccessible. "Redundant timelines" exist as alternate choices made by histories which didn't receive meddlesome time travelers who had a better idea about he shape of their history. And tampering they do in the past that makes their existence impossible continues to exist in the past even if they are suddenly in a timeline where they have murdered their own grandparents, which is no different form any minor change they may have made which cause their existence to be impossible like attacking Voyager with godlike powers a couple months after it's stranded in the delta Quadrant.

 

[Turbo]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

So it basically boils down to "A temporal wizard did it"?

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Fury did change the past as we knew it. The first six seasons up until Fury was the "original" timeline but then when Kes traveled back in time a series of events occurred that didn't occur the first time--evil Kes coming back, Tuvok's premonitions of Borg children, the Vidiian assault thanks to Kes' betrayal, the hologram etc.

The first time Janeway wasn't ready when elder Kes' shuttle approached and requested help. In this new timeline, Janeway and Tuvok were ready. They showed her the hologram. Had it failed all it would mean was Kes would have had a second chance to change the past.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Turbo said:
So it basically boils down to "A temporal wizard did it"?

Kes is a sexy wizard.

 

[Turbo]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Guy Gardener said:

Turbo said:
So it basically boils down to "A temporal wizard did it"?

Kes is a sexy wizard.

Yeah, if we're talking about Seasons 2 and 3 Kes. Especially late Season 3.

 

[exodus]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Guy Gardener said:
The Braxton who told us that time was a rigid set of predestinations in Futures End had the dominance of his timeline by the end of Futures End II supplanted by a Braxton with superior technology who said that they can scan alternate/parallel timelines which leads to the acceptance of branch theory that there are an infinite amout of B's resulting from A and so on until not all C's lead back to A which is exactly what happened in not he episode.

Further more in Relativity the crazy Braxton there said that he had been integrated with the Braxton who had spent 20 years in a nut house on 20th century Earth. So that this Braxton was a composite of both Braxtons seen in Futures End II, and no evidence or memories of artifacts or people vanished just because the Voyager no longer Destroyed the the 29th century just because that was no longer the most potential future available, if in fact it ever was.

The same rules apply to the two timelines seen in Fury. Traveling through time and penetrating the consistency of the past creates a new timeline which can be magnificently or negligibly different from the one you are used to being a part of. Braxton said that other timelines exist. Incontinuity doesn't destroy future history, it just makes it inaccessible. "Redundant timelines" exist as alternate choices made by histories which didn't receive meddlesome time travelers who had a better idea about he shape of their history. And tampering they do in the past that makes their existence impossible continues to exist in the past even if they are suddenly in a timeline where they have murdered their own grandparents, which is no different form any minor change they may have made which cause their existence to be impossible like attacking Voyager with godlike powers a couple months after it's stranded in the delta Quadrant.

That's just a clever excuse the writers made to admit they fucked up because they couldn't answer questions about why nobody remembers Kes' warning about the Krenium, so they swept it under the carpet by creating this lame excuse.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

For the same reason they didn't have the Doctor on standby with a couple of hundred doses of anti-proton radiation for the crew after Warp-10ing it back to Earth.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

exodus said:
That's just a clever excuse the writers made to admit they fucked up because they couldn't answer questions about why nobody remembers Kes' warning about the Krenium, so they swept it under the carpet by creating this lame excuse.

No, the reason (yes according to Braga, someone here a long time ago swears Braga told them at a convention when asked.) that no one remembered Kes' warning is that the Annorax had been changing timelines for "a hundred years"(Which is mentioned on screen more than once.) and all the many many timelines where the events in Before and After played out where the warning survived, didn't effect Annorax since he wasn't part of any "warning". Voyagers history had been changed and fudged thousands of times over and over again before Year of Hell even began because those were the thousands of times that Janeway and her crew were puppets with no knowledge of Annorax or capability of stopping him so just got "reset" at some point during a cunning adventure where they owned the Krenum because of Kes' warning.

But that's hardly the matter at contention, and considering it tracks with how Tasha Yar became a temporal refugee in what was it, the third season of TNG, that means that Star Trek has had the option of operating under these rules if a writer chose to.

 

[exodus]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Guy Gardener said:

exodus said:
That's just a clever excuse the writers made to admit they fucked up because they couldn't answer questions about why nobody remembers Kes' warning about the Krenium, so they swept it under the carpet by creating this lame excuse.

No, the reason (yes according to Braga, someone here a long time ago swears Braga told them at a convention when asked.) that no one remembered Kes' warning is that the Annorax had been changing timelines for "a hundred years"(Which is mentioned on screen more than once.) and all the many many timelines where the events in Before and After played out where the warning survived, didn't effect Annorax since he wasn't part of any "warning". Voyagers history had been changed and fudged thousands of times over and over again before Year of Hell even began because those were the thousands of times that Janeway and her crew were puppets with no knowledge of Annorax or capability of stopping him so just got "reset" at some point during a cunning adventure where they owned the Krenum because of Kes' warning.

But that's hardly the matter at contention, and considering it tracks with how Tasha Yar became a temporal refugee in what was it, the third season of TNG, that means that Star Trek has had the option of operating under these rules if a writer chose to.

But I believe Janeway and Seven explained that time only changed with the Krenuim in that region of space and as far as the temporal shock wave went. Like a tide, after the wave dissapates nothing beyond it is affected. I believe that's what they were showing in astrometrix when they were showing the change in Krenium territory. Voyager was never affected until after they got hit by the first wave.(remember, they were in talks with the local government leader. the shock wave hit and he and his people disappeared) If time had been changing in that whole quaderant, wouldn't he have been gone before Voyager arrived.

 

[cylkoth]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Arrrgh! [O'Brien]"I hate temporal mechcanics!"[/O'Brien]

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

exodus said:
But I believe Janeway and Seven explained that time only changed with the Krenuim in that region of space and as far as the temporal shock wave went. Like a tide, after the wave dissapates nothing beyond it is affected. I believe that's what they were showing in astrometrix when they were showing the change in Krenium territory. Voyager was never affected until after they got hit by the first wave.(remember, they were in talks with the local government leader. the shock wave hit and he and his people disappeared) If time had been changing in that whole quaderant, wouldn't he have been gone before Voyager arrived.

That "Government Leader" was never there in the new timeine because his planet had been rooted by Annorax subjectively MANY years earlier, and Janeway and Co did not remember him being there because he wasn't in the new refreshed timeline. However if they had had temporal shields at the time, then the Government leader would have survived the temporal editing uneffected despite that he no longer had a world or parents and he was never born.

And if Janeway didn't notice that change, or the next ten before they invented temporal shields during the course of as much story was on camera, you can't be sure that that was the first change that Anorax made except that it wasn't. When he killed that world in the beginning, he didn't say "This is a test, I don't know if this will work but what could possibly go wrong? ...Oh shit, I made aplague and killed my wife!" No he didn't... He was already trying to get his wife back after the first blunderous attempt to use the weapon from ONE HUNDRED YEARS earlier when we began viewing the story.

You start watching a WWII movie set in 1944, do you beleive for a second that the war started at the beginning of 1944, just because there isn't a lengthy history lesson in the opening credits about the first half decade? Year of Hell was the same, although instead of skipping over the first 5 years, it skipped over a century with of story to start at when things got interesting.

Who is to say the wave dissipated? I assumed it
gathered speed like an avalanche as more more weight built up behind it pushing the displacement wave forward faster and the crest wouldn't fall until it run out of universe to change.

Or else the universe would be like Voy Shattered whith scissored history cutting between empires and planets and cities and houses and people... Which some one would notice and get all up in the Krenum's business.

 

[exodus]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Guy Gardener said:

exodus said:
But I believe Janeway and Seven explained that time only changed with the Krenuim in that region of space and as far as the temporal shock wave went. Like a tide, after the wave dissapates nothing beyond it is affected. I believe that's what they were showing in astrometrix when they were showing the change in Krenium territory. Voyager was never affected until after they got hit by the first wave.(remember, they were in talks with the local government leader. the shock wave hit and he and his people disappeared) If time had been changing in that whole quaderant, wouldn't he have been gone before Voyager arrived.

That "Government Leader" was never there in the new timeine because his planet had been rooted by Annorax subjectively MANY years earlier, and Janeway and Co did not remember him being there because he wasn't in the new refreshed timeline. However if they had had temporal shields at the time, then the Government leader would have survived the temporal editing uneffected despite that he no longer had a world or parents and he was never born.

And if Janeway didn't notice that change, or the next ten before they invented temporal shields during the course of as much story was on camera, you can't be sure that that was the first change that Anorax made except that it wasn't. When he killed that world in the beginning, he didn't say "This is a test, I don't know if this will work but what could possibly go wrong? ...Oh shit, I made aplague and killed my wife!" No he didn't... He was already trying to get his wife back after the first blunderous attempt to use the weapon from ONE HUNDRED YEARS earlier when we began viewing the story.

You start watching a WWII movie set in 1944, do you beleive for a second that the war started at the beginning of 1944, just because there isn't a lengthy history lesson in the opening credits about the first half decade? Year of Hell was the same, although instead of skipping over the first 5 years, it skipped over a century with of story to start at when things got interesting.

Who is to say the wave dissipated? I assumed it
gathered speed like an avalanche as more more weight built up behind it pushing the displacement wave forward faster and the crest wouldn't fall until it run out of universe to change.

Or else the universe would be like Voy Shattered whith scissored history cutting between empires and planets and cities and houses and people... Which some one would notice and get all up in the Krenum's business.

I could have sworn we saw the wave dissapate after it passed Voyager.

Dammit, now your gonna make me watch this ep. again just to be sure.

 

[chrinFinity]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Guy Gardener said:Kes is a sexy wizard.

!??

 

[exodus]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

BoyliciousDarian said:

Guy Gardener said:Kes is a sexy wizard.

!??

Kiss me, my fool!

Seriously, I do think Jen Lien has a damn sexy voice. I can see why they used her as Linda Florentino's character "L" in the MEN IN BLACK cartoon.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: In Furys NEW past, how're the Vidians a threat in Deadlo

Father of your nation thinks she's sexy.

Benjamin Franklin, Advice to a Young Man on the Choice of a Mistress (1745).

June 25, 1745

My dear Friend,

I know of no Medicine fit to diminish the violent natural Inclinations you mention; and if I did, I think I should not communicate it to you. Marriage is the proper Remedy. It is the most natural State of Man, and therefore the State in which you are most likely to find solid Happiness. Your Reasons against entering into it at present, appear to me not well-founded. The circumstantial Advantages you have in View by postponing it, are not only uncertain, but they are small in comparison with that of the Thing itself, the being married and settled. It is the Man and Woman united that make the compleat human Being. Separate, she wants his Force of Body and Strength of Reason; he, her Softness, Sensibility and acute Discernment. Together they are more likely to succeed in the World. A single Man has not nearly the Value he would have in that State of Union. He is an incomplete Animal. He resembles the odd Half of a Pair of Scissars. If you get a prudent healthy Wife, your Industry in your Profession, with her good Economy, will be a Fortune sufficient.

But if you will not take this Counsel, and persist in thinking a Commerce with the Sex inevitable, then I repeat my former Advice, that in all your Amours you should prefer old Women to young ones. You call this a Paradox, and demand my Reasons. They are these:

i. Because as they have more Knowledge of the World and their Minds are better stor'd with Observations, their Conversation is more improving and more lastingly agreable.

2. Because when Women cease to be handsome, they study to be good. To maintain their Influence over Men, they supply the Diminution of Beauty by an Augmentation of Utility. They learn to do a 1000 Services small and great, and are the most tender and useful of all Friends when you are sick. Thus they continue amiable. And hence there is hardly such a thing to be found as an old Woman who is not a good Woman.

3. Because there is no hazard of Children, which irregularly produc'd may be attended with much Inconvenience.

4. Because thro' more Experience, they are more prudent and discreet in conducting an Intrigue to prevent Suspicion. The Commerce with them is therefore safer with regard to your Reputation. And with regard to theirs, if the Affair should happen to be known, considerate People might be rather inclin'd to excuse an old Woman who would kindly take care of a young Man, form his Manners by her good Counsels, and prevent his ruining his Health and Fortune among mercenary Prostitutes.

5. Because in every Animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part: The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding2 only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.

6. Because the Sin is less. The debauching a Virgin may be her Ruin, and make her for Life unhappy.

7. Because the Compunction is less. The having made a young Girl miserable may give you frequent bitter Reflections; none of which can attend the making an old Woman happy.

8thly and Lastly They are so grateful!!

Thus much for my Paradox. But still I advise you to marry directly; being sincerely Your affectionate Friend.

Exodus, you're having trouble thinking 5th dimendionally. After the displacement wave changes Voyager into believing it has always existed in a universe where the removed species never existed, then the species was never there to be destroyed and the displacement wave would never have struck Voyager in the first place goodness forbid seen continuing to change the matter beyond Voyager.

Hmm? After saying that, I almost recall them still bracing for impact after the Displacement hit because they were... Voyager was not the target, and Voyager was not the target and considering the immediate changes could be felt fro at least a years travel as the Krenim Empire changed shape and consistency, Voyager was never so close tot he edge that they noticed a sectioned off portion of temporally mutable space... If the displacement wave did collapse, then it would have been WELL past where Voyager was situated otherwise someone would have noticed what Annorax was up to.