I'm drawing a blank--does anyone recall specific tomes of lore, history, etc. that Klingons refer to or read within canon? I don't mean titles of books about Klingons that have been published, but books referenced within the episodes themselves.
In-canon Klingon books
- Thread starter Jim Johnson
- Start date
Looking at Memory Alpha, most of the Klingon writings mentioned in canon are from the literal canon -- i.e. various sacred texts, e.g. about Kahless and the kuvah'magh. They include the Paq'batlh, which in turn includes at least eleven Tomes of Klavek. There's also an epic poem called The Fall of Kang, which is required reading at Starfleet Academy (so it's probably about an earlier Kang than the one we know). Oh, and at the other end of the spectrum, there's the Klingon romance novel Women Warriors at the River of Blood. That's all I can find.
I'd assume that the various Klingon myths we heard about were in written form somewhere, but it wasn't specifically mentioned.
I'd assume that the various Klingon myths we heard about were in written form somewhere, but it wasn't specifically mentioned.
Would the Klingon dictionary scene from Star Trek VI; The Undiscovered Country count? The crew of the Enterprise-A were using physical books to talk Klingon.
Or how about the going away scene with Data in The Measure of a Man and Worf gives him a physical copy of The Dream of the Fire by K'Ratak.
Or how about the going away scene with Data in The Measure of a Man and Worf gives him a physical copy of The Dream of the Fire by K'Ratak.
I prefer to ignore that scene altogether...
Dunno, considering that this is a franchise in which we got space hippies, a women villain who went insane and "who didn't know her place" per '60s "values," cartoon women who steal life force with headbands, Vulcans riding unicorns, people mutating into salamanders, transgender being played as a farce, and an Indian man whitewashed as British guy, that scene is hardly the worst or most embarrasing thing we've had to deal with.
There's a difference between a scene that's just implausible and a scene that insults a main character's competence like that scene did for Uhura. Thirty years in Starfleet and she never learned Klingon?
And how is "Vulcans riding unicorns" anything less than awesome?
Although, in this one particular case, it's mentioned in the film that Admiral Marcus had Khan surgically altered into "John Harrison" as a covert-ops thing, so there was a proper in-universe explanation given for it.
Last edited:
No, that's from a tie-in comic, not the movie. The film only says that Harrison was a "fiction" created by Admiral Marcus, "a smokescreen to conceal my true identity." It's never stated that his face was changed, although that's certainly plausible in the context of what was stated.
Of course, it should be kept in mind that Ricardo Montalban was a white man (Mexican but of Spanish parentage) who was painted in brownface to play Khan in "Space Seed," but then reprised the role with his natural complexion in TWOK. So the role has always been whitewashed. Besides, Sikhs are a religion rather than an ethnic group, so it's entirely possible for a Sikh to be Mexican or English or anything else. And the name "Khan Noonien Singh" is such a complete ethnic hodgepodge (first name that's usually a Muslim surname, middle name that's purportedly Chinese, with only the last name being Sikh) that there's no real way of definitively assigning an ethnicity to him. Since he was the result of a eugenics program, he could easily be of mixed heritage, which would explain his name.
Right before I posted that, just to be certain in case I was misremembering, I tried to double-check this over at Memory Alpha, whose entry for the Kelvin Timeline version of Khan interestingly says this:
But for some reason, I missed this little sub-entry right beneath that paragraph (likely due to altered mobile-website formatting, which looks different on my desktop PC):
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh_(alternate_reality)
Very peculiar that Memory Alpha is actually incorporating non-canonical info into their entries now, unless maybe this is something that slipped right past the admins there. But yep -- I was definitely misremembering that one.
Likely. There's still a widespread misconception that the Kelvin tie-in comics are somehow canonical.
Anyway, I still say that if Khan is supposed to be from India, then an English accent makes a hell of a lot more sense than a Mexican one.
I believe MA's house-style is open to interpretations of the canon that may be regarded as obvious or implied. While ST09 explicitly states that in-universe Pine/Shatner and Pegg/Doohan look and sound identical, since MA has no reason to think KT-Khan didn't initially look like Khan-Prime, and the movie does state he was operating under a false identity, and cosmetic surgery is easy-peasy in Star Trek, they seem to think it's an acceptable interpretation of the movie KT-Khan had his appearance disguised when we met him and that Cumberbatch and Montalban don't look and sound identical in-universe.
I remember noticing that in another case; MA has an article on the US Postal Service that includes some obvious real-world material about the organization's name and function that isn't directly sourced from its appearances in Trek canon. On the other hand, the Doctor Who fan-wiki has an article on Steve Jobs that diligently restricts itself to what has been mentioned in official Doctor Who; Steve Jobs invented the iPad, and died before Danny Pink. Nothing about founding Apple, the Mac, the iPod, nada, though a BTS note does mention that it's heavily implied that DW-Jobs also was involved with the creation of the iPhone.
"The Savage Curtain" (TOS) operated from the premise that Kirk had no idea who Surak was. Stuff like this happens and I'd take that over something actually offensive.
Umm, because unicorns?
Thing is, in the original show, it's stated that he was born in India. While he could've been an immigrant or biracial, it really seems like that wasn't the intent. As far as the the casting of non-Indian Ricardo Montalban, I kinda feel like we're in "Fair For Its Day" territory; whatever you make of the casting, the point was that this was a non-white character in a major role. The fact that whitewashing may have been a factor in the '60s does not excuse the mistake of doing it in the present when the Powers That Be not only should've known better, but when it would be easier to find an actor of Indian heritage.
The real-world intent is one conversation; how things can be rationalized in-universe is a separate conversation. The topic on the table is in the latter category: whether cosmetic surgery is necessary to "explain" Khan's appearance in STID. I contend that it is not necessary, because Khan looked just as white in TWOK; it's only in "Space Seed" that he was painted brown, which makes that the anomaly out of the three.
I agree that would've been better (my vote was for Naveen Andrews). But that's the other conversation.
I guess I never saw a need for an in-universe explanation (given how we usually suspend disbelief for recasting in movies and stuff), leaving the whitewashing question as the "only" one (if that makes any sense). (If anything, the only one I can see needing further explanation is Chekov, who not only looks different, but was born earlier then the one from TOS; logically, they can't be the same person, but brothers born in different timelines -- something I am sure was never the intent of the filmmakers.)
Alternate explanation: Marla MacGuyvers had no clue what she was talking about. A chean-shaven guy with a waxed chest and she assumes he's a Sikh?
Critical research failure on behalf of the "Space Seed" writers.
Critical research failure on behalf of the "Space Seed" writers.
The research was done. Kellam de Forest Research specifically advised the show's staff of the problems with their portrayal of Khan. From their December 13, 1966 script memo:
http://startrekfactcheck.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-evolution-of-space-seed.html
Yet for whatever reason, the producers chose to ignore this advice except for the "Singh" part.
Of course, that's a given. It's just odd in this case, because it doesn't seem like necessary poetic license that serves the story, it just seems like not caring that they were doing it wrong. Okay, I can understand them not wanting to hide Montalban's famous Latin-lover mug behind a thick beard, and I suppose Khan is a stronger villain name than Govind ("Govinnnnnnnnnd!!!!!"), and Roddenberry had his crazy notion of catching his friend Noonien's attention by using his name in a TV episode, but then, why not just strike the "Sikh" line from the script altogether?
Similar threads
