In Alabama, MLK Day and Robert E. Lee's Bday are celebrated today

[ThankQ]

Yeah, I've always found Lee to be an interesting historical figure for many of those reasons.

I USED to think these things as well, but I now realize I was just fooled by revisionist southern history.

*snip*

Oh, I'm not arguing with any of this, I know he was no saint. Nerys Ghemor outlined fairly eloquently why I find him interesting, as well.

I think it's ironic that once he was a freed man, once a slave of Robert E. Lee, where did he choose to work?

ARLINGTON!

That's as rich as it gets. Mr. Nelson also sounds to me like a very interesting character. I think I might do some research to find out if there is more known about his life. He appears very brave, and very well spoken for a slave from his era, and also like a person who accepted his horrible situation and made the best of his life. He may be a good study.

 

[TheBrew]

I do believe on of my black friends almost killed me when I told him it was REL DAY.

So you were baiting him?

Well he is a master baiter.

 

[warriorsfan]

Lee's Birthday is also a state holiday in Georgia, Florida, Texas and a few other states. When I was a kid growing up in the South in the 60's we always got Lee's Birthday (Jan 19) and Confederate Memorial Day (Apr 26) off and I didn't grow up to be a bigot.

The Confederacy is a vanquished mortal foe of the United States (you know, the country we live in). They are responsible for killing more American soldiers than both Germany and Japan combined during World War II.

I consider it downright treasonous to glorify a hated enemy of the United States of America and an enemy that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in our nation's bloodiest war. A failed insurrection is not something to celebrate.

Hey Southerners, you live in the UNITED STATES, the country that won the American Civil War. Show some loyalty to the Stars and Stripes and stop worshiping our fallen enemy. Or you could always giiiiiiiiiiiit ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuut!

 

[sidious618]

The Confederacy is a vanquished mortal foe of the United States (you know, the country we live in). They are responsible for killing more American soldiers than both Germany and Japan combined during World War II.

I agree with this. I can't see how people can go on defending them and then say they're proud to be American. Surely you can't be both.

 

[Unicron]

It gets even crazier in Arkansas. There, it's King-Lee-Jackson day...as in, Stonewall Jackson.

I have to disagree with Starship Polaris on several points.

For one thing, I find it on the same level with ethnic and racial discrimination to stereotype an entire region of the country the way it seems to be acceptable in liberal circles to bash the South. If you spoke that way of the black community or of another country that way, you'd be rightly decried for it--but people seem to think that if it's the South, it's OK. If you think the South has a monopoly on ignorance and racism, think again. I've lived in both places and I can tell you there is only one difference between the two: the North just doesn't openly acknowledge that it has a problem. But it's the same problem in both places.

I also think we run a very serious risk any time we start trying to revise history. We need to fully understand what was going on on both sides during the Civil War or we run the risk of repeating our mistakes. I think TheBrew hits the nail on the head when it comes to Lee in particular.

I don't think vengeance on the part of the Union would have been the right solution--the South got enough punishment as it was in the final parts of the war. And some will argue that Reconstruction has also had permanent and damaging effects on the region that is only now starting to right itself. But had there been even more vengeance, I think it is entirely possible that would've just touched off another conflict the way the Treaty of Versailles sowed the seeds for World War II. Just imagine the havoc devotees of Nathan Bedford Forrest could've wreaked in that kind of environment.

In the end, we have a unified country that, while it does have its problems, will (hopefully) never again go down the road that led to the Civil War. Enforcing ignorance about those days will not help in preserving that fundamental unity that we so need especially in times when dissent is high.

Thank you for this post, Nerys. As a southerner, and a Virginian, I have no problem with the fact that the South was wrong and contributed far more to the sectional tensions than the North did. They were able to bring the war about largely because the concept of national unity we have now was far less established. But to pretend that the North was a section of saints, or that the majority of current Southerners are racist hillbillies, is as absurd as believing that those Americans descended from loyal British families are just hoping and praying that the UK will invade and reclaim its wayward colonies. Not gonna happen.

If I've learned anything from studying military history, it's that things are never as black and white as some revisionists on both sides would like them to be. They're many shades of gray at best. When General Lee surrendered at Appamattox, he made every effort to urge the Confederates to lay down their arms quietly and begin rebuilding. The war was over, and there was no more need to continue spreading violence and hate. It is unfortunate that Abraham Lincoln, who appreciated the same sentiment, did not live to carry out his own view of reconstruction.

I agree with this. I can't see how people can go on defending them and then say they're proud to be American. Surely you can't be both.

* shrugs *

I'm not proud that Thomas Jefferson screwed one of his slaves. But I am proud of the fact that he was a capable politician, and that he provided valuable leadership to this country. Should I judge him only on the fact that he had a mistress, and was therefore not entirely faithful to his wife, and not on his positive achievements?

 

[sidious618]

I'm not proud that Thomas Jefferson screwed one of his slaves. But I am proud of the fact that he was a capable politician, and that he provided valuable leadership to this country. Should I judge him only on the fact that he had a mistress, and was therefore not entirely faithful to his wife, and not on his positive achievements?

Apples and oranges. The Confederacy liked slavery and committed treason. You can't compare that to Jefferson probably raping his slave. It doesn't fly.

 

[ThankQ]

I'm not proud that Thomas Jefferson screwed one of his slaves. But I am proud of the fact that he was a capable politician, and that he provided valuable leadership to this country. Should I judge him only on the fact that he had a mistress, and was therefore not entirely faithful to his wife, and not on his positive achievements?

Apples and oranges. The Confederacy liked slavery and committed treason. You can't compare that to Jefferson probably raping his slave. It doesn't fly.

It's only treason because they lost. The revolutionaries committed treason against the Crown, but since they won it is called "liberation" instead of "treason".

The CSA wanted to break away from what they considered to be the rule of a foreign power. They just weren't successful. They did not want to destroy the Union, the wanted to leave it.

 

[Unicron]

^ Agreed. The South was definitely wrong to go to war in defense of slavery, but it must be remembered that the North didn't oppose it primarily on moral grounds. The abolitionists certainly did, but they were a minority. The North was more opposed on economic grounds because slaves competed with their free labor. And the Constitution is a gray area at best on secession, since the union it is designed to function with the Constitution intact and dependent on that; if a state claims it will no longer follow that Constitution, because it is not in the best interest of the state, there's little way to enforce it but with force. I think in that respect Lincoln had little alternative but to fight for the Union, or just let the South go.

There's no doubt for me that the South left for the wrong reasons, and although I think there are some valid reasons for the states to have that option, I believe the circumstances would have to be pretty dire to justify it. They were not at that level when the war broke out, and the secession movement only succeeded on such a large scale because there was little sense of citizens being "Americans" and not "New Yorkers" or "Kentuckians" or "Alabamians." The idea of leaving the union was as old as the union itself, but had never been tested before that point.

 

[Captain Intrepid]

The revolutionaries committed treason against the Crown, but since they won it is called "liberation" instead of "treason".

Only in your revisionist propaganda filled history books.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

In Alabama, MLK Day and Robert E. Lee's Bday are celebrated today

They celebrate them at the same time!

I think that this is a wonderful idea as well. That's... really all I have to say.

I do believe on of my black friends almost killed me when I told him it was REL DAY.

Well, at least you're consistent about trolling people to get a reaction both online and in your private life.

See, if you weren't trolling, you would have expanded on why you think it's a great idea to celebrate the two holidays together in the OP instead of just gleefully posting the info and waiting for a reaction.

Also, you wouldn't have done anything incredibly stupid like gloating about it being Lee's birthday to a black guy on MLK day (if that incident even actually happened, since we know you're afraid of the world) and waiting for a reaction.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

The funny thing is people forget that secession from the Union was a hotly debated topic way before slavery even got a hold. The earliest roots can actually be found during the War of 1812 when the Northern colonies were thinking about seceding from the Union to sue for peace with Britain. They hated the president and thought he dragged them into an unnecessary war. Then you got the whole South Carolina, Calhoun, and Jackson debacle a few years down the road.

The other issue is, people identified more with their State than with the Union. The Civil War, for good or bad, brought one important thing to the table. It was a unifying factor that would come to dominate in the late 19th and early 20th century as the AMERICANS became a global superpower. Before then, you had people identifying themselves more with the state than with the country.

 

[Squiggy]

I do believe on of my black friends almost killed me when I told him it was REL DAY.

So you were baiting him?

He's a troll IRL.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The funny thing is people forget that secession from the Union was a hotly debated topic way before slavery even got a hold. The earliest roots can actually be found during the War of 1812 when the Northern colonies were thinking about seceding from the Union to sue for peace with Britain. They hated the president and thought he dragged them into an unnecessary war. Then you got the whole South Carolina, Calhoun, and Jackson debacle a few years down the road.

The other issue is, people identified more with their State than with the Union. The Civil War, for good or bad, brought one important thing to the table. It was a unifying factor that would come to dominate in the late 19th and early 20th century as the AMERICANS became a global superpower. Before then, you had people identifying themselves more with the state than with the country.

I think this is an accurate assessment.

Slavery was certainly a major issue. States' rights was also a major issue. Understand both, and you understand the causes of the Civil War. Denying EITHER is not going to give you a clear picture of the historical roots of the war.

 

[Scout101]

In Alabama, MLK Day and Robert E. Lee's Bday are celebrated today

They celebrate them at the same time!

I think that this is a wonderful idea as well. That's... really all I have to say.

I do believe on of my black friends almost killed me when I told him it was REL DAY.

Well, at least you're consistent about trolling people to get a reaction both online and in your private life.

See, if you weren't trolling, you would have expanded on why you think it's a great idea to celebrate the two holidays together in the OP instead of just gleefully posting the info and waiting for a reaction.

Also, you wouldn't have done anything incredibly stupid like gloating about it being Lee's birthday to a black guy on MLK day (if that incident even actually happened, since we know you're afraid of the world) and waiting for a reaction.

We have a winner. Like you said, painfully obvious...

 

[Meat Tenderizer]

Lee's Birthday is also a state holiday in Georgia, Florida, Texas and a few other states. When I was a kid growing up in the South in the 60's we always got Lee's Birthday (Jan 19) and Confederate Memorial Day (Apr 26) off and I didn't grow up to be a bigot.

The Confederacy is a vanquished mortal foe of the United States (you know, the country we live in). They are responsible for killing more American soldiers than both Germany and Japan combined during World War II.

I consider it downright treasonous to glorify a hated enemy of the United States of America and an enemy that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in our nation's bloodiest war. A failed insurrection is not something to celebrate.

Hey Southerners, you live in the UNITED STATES, the country that won the American Civil War. Show some loyalty to the Stars and Stripes and stop worshiping our fallen enemy. Or you could always giiiiiiiiiiiit ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuut!

And the Union bears no responsibility for those deaths?

 

[JuanBolio]

Many people who celebrate Lee's birthday are treasonous and should be stripped of their citizenship and deported at the very least.

That, and a great deal of the rest of your post, was absurd.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Lee's Birthday is also a state holiday in Georgia, Florida, Texas and a few other states. When I was a kid growing up in the South in the 60's we always got Lee's Birthday (Jan 19) and Confederate Memorial Day (Apr 26) off and I didn't grow up to be a bigot.

The Confederacy is a vanquished mortal foe of the United States (you know, the country we live in). They are responsible for killing more American soldiers than both Germany and Japan combined during World War II.

I consider it downright treasonous to glorify a hated enemy of the United States of America and an enemy that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in our nation's bloodiest war. A failed insurrection is not something to celebrate.

Hey Southerners, you live in the UNITED STATES, the country that won the American Civil War. Show some loyalty to the Stars and Stripes and stop worshiping our fallen enemy. Or you could always giiiiiiiiiiiit ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuut!

And the Union bears no responsibility for those deaths?

If the South had not seceded, there would have been no war.

 

[JuanBolio]

The Confederacy is a vanquished mortal foe of the United States (you know, the country we live in). They are responsible for killing more American soldiers than both Germany and Japan combined during World War II.

I consider it downright treasonous to glorify a hated enemy of the United States of America and an enemy that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in our nation's bloodiest war. A failed insurrection is not something to celebrate.

Hey Southerners, you live in the UNITED STATES, the country that won the American Civil War. Show some loyalty to the Stars and Stripes and stop worshiping our fallen enemy. Or you could always giiiiiiiiiiiit ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuut!

And the Union bears no responsibility for those deaths?

If the South had not seceded, there would have been no war.

The south would argue that if those in Washington had not acted intolerably, there would have been no need.

As for venerating a failed rebellion - if America had lost the revolution, how would you feel about it today?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As for venerating a failed rebellion - if America had lost the revolution, how would you feel about it today?

I have no idea. If that had happened, I'd probably be a British citizen right now, and that would color my opinion. I might feel good about it.

 

[JuanBolio]

As for venerating a failed rebellion - if America had lost the revolution, how would you feel about it today?

I have no idea. If that had happened, I'd probably be a British citizen right now, and that would color my opinion. I might feel good about it.

Maybe. Maybe you'd be Canadian. Would you think it fair to be branded a traitor for venerating their struggle?