My exact feelings about "ANiS" and "TATV." Two hours of a valuable ninety-eight the fans will never, ever get back.
"In A Mirror, Darkly" Discussion Thread...
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My exact feelings about "ANiS" and "TATV." Two hours of a valuable ninety-eight the fans will never, ever get back.
I remember loving Dark Mirror, threfore I´m glad it got some cannon reference, altough not in TNG format.
The whole Alliance idea was result of Wolfe´s reasoning of Terran brutality by having powerful enemies. I don´t buy it becouse it makes Mirror Spock brainless(wait, that happened in mirror universe as well??? !!!!).
Yes, that´s also my own problem with Empire of this era being allready so big. How was Mirror Earth able to quickly conquer at least five different species, even those so tough and experienced like Orions or Andorians?
How is that regime working anyway? For a state of human supremacists they seem to like diversity too much considering how many aliens are in Starfleet.
Anyway I like it, especially the first part. Altough inclusion of Defiant had to feel as at least a little forced, it conceived original MU story. Part II however was full of improvisations, the biggest one of them being Gorn saboteur, shortly followed by Mirror Archer´s inner voice and (please don´t beat me) cheesy TOS settings, which unlike in "Trials and Tribble-ations" couldn´t provide any kind of solid interaction. I think that this two-parter is interesting even in context of season 4 for that reason that other arcs failed in the moment when they were supposed to give resolution, therefore turn off the thrill. In this case, it was thrill from start to the end so decline of quality wasn´t so obvious.
I wonder what house was emperor before Hoshi took over. Green? Cochrane?
I think the Terran Empire did have powerful enemies - the Mirror Universe Saga even suggested it arose on an Earth that had lost the Romulan War and been annexed into the Empire for a while. The genesis for the political movement that eventually led to the Terran Empire came from the resistance movement. It's kind of like the Bajorans from one of the realities seen in "Parallels," who became more aggressive after defeating the Cardassians in their reality.
My problem with the Alliance is twofold. The first problem is that the Terran Empire was obviously a major power in its day, yet it's implied that it just sort of disappeared with only a small revolution. It'd be kind of like if the UK just ceased to exist without any political repercussions for the rest of the world. The second problem is that the Alliance doesn't really seem any different, it just has more aliens instead of humans.
My problem with the Alliance is twofold. The first problem is that the Terran Empire was obviously a major power in its day, yet it's implied that it just sort of disappeared with only a small revolution. It'd be kind of like if the UK just ceased to exist without any political repercussions for the rest of the world. The second problem is that the Alliance doesn't really seem any different, it just has more aliens instead of humans.
...Of course, the Alliance would not be obligated or inclined tell the truth about what really happened to its predecessor...
As for humans kick-starting their empire after Cochrane commandeers the Vulcan lander, one might say that they made good use of the defining characteristic of the Mirror universe: the readiness and eagerness for backstabbing. They could have played that particular game better than the other species, setting them up against each other while holding their own empire together through racist propaganda.
Of course, the racism would be only skin deep as usual. What Earth captain wouldn't have a hot Vulcan woman assigned to his bridge and quarters? (And what Nazi luminary wouldn't "enlist" the services of a top-notch Jewish doctor?)
Timo Saloniemi
As for humans kick-starting their empire after Cochrane commandeers the Vulcan lander, one might say that they made good use of the defining characteristic of the Mirror universe: the readiness and eagerness for backstabbing. They could have played that particular game better than the other species, setting them up against each other while holding their own empire together through racist propaganda.
Of course, the racism would be only skin deep as usual. What Earth captain wouldn't have a hot Vulcan woman assigned to his bridge and quarters? (And what Nazi luminary wouldn't "enlist" the services of a top-notch Jewish doctor?)
Timo Saloniemi
Well, that was contradicted by the episode that is discussed here. I don´t doubt that they had enemies, I just doubt Wolfe´s logic that Mirror Spock went with his reforms so far that he conscioussly opened gates for Klingons and Cardassians. Speaking about Romulans it would be cool seeing them as allies of Terran Empire which would make them really likely force of help for Terran rebellion. And point of the Alliance was that humans were now slaves and we were supposed to care...
Shortsighted and dumb on thir side then. Mirror T´Pol wasn´t anyone´s concubine, she was actually made first officer by Mirror Archer. and are you suggesting admiral Black had Mirror Soval for that reason? Hmmm....
I didn't realize it until I saw it mentioned in another thread, but the problem is that none of the main characters went to the other universe. It was just two hours of people we didn't know, two hours taken away from other arcs. An utter and complete waste of time, in other words.
Fantastic episodes, and by far my favorite MU shows after the original TOS episode. I always hated what DS9 did with it - they basically turned the humans back into the sympathetic good guys, and made the Klingons and Cardassians the bad ones ... which is not all that different from the normal Trek universe.
While I agree with you that "Daedalus" is good and underrated, I doubt even a two-hour "TATV" would have worked short of rewriting part of the script and giving less time to Riker and Troi.
cooleddie, I was being sarcastic, responding to posts that state IaMD was a waste of time simply because none of the regular characters were in it. IMO IaMD was anything but a waste of time, it was an absolute classic. I wouldn't trade IaMD for 100 episodes at the level of Daedalus, much less 2. If the writers had better story ideas or scripts ready to go then they wouldn't produce mediocre episodes like Daedalus. So the idea that IaMD somehow prevented us from seeing a couple of great episodes with the regular characters in it is just pure fantasy.
Frankly I was skeptical myself when I heard about IaMD, thinking that not using any of the regular characters was a mistake. But the final results is so entertaining, so inventive, so much better than most episodes with the regular characters in them, that I don't care. I am glad they did it. One of the shames of not getting a 5th season is that they had planned to do a follow up episode set in mirror universe.
Frankly I was skeptical myself when I heard about IaMD, thinking that not using any of the regular characters was a mistake. But the final results is so entertaining, so inventive, so much better than most episodes with the regular characters in them, that I don't care. I am glad they did it. One of the shames of not getting a 5th season is that they had planned to do a follow up episode set in mirror universe.
You haven't mentioned one specific thing in this thread. Entertaining? inventive? better? Can you please provide a short list of the inventiveness of these episodes?
You want me to explain entertaining or better? Those are purely a matter of taste. Obviously you disagree, but that's what these message boards are all about, a chance for us to express our opinions. When I first saw IaMD I thought it was good, not great. But it has aged real well. Each time I've seen it I have liked it more. I can't wait to see in in HD when HDNet shows it few months from now.
As far inventiveness, just about everything in these episodes was inventive: having it all take place entirely in mirror universe, a great new opening title sequence created just for these episodes (with a musical score far superior to the regular one, that made it even more obvious than before that the choice of the song was wrong), the use of the scene from First Contact, ties to 2 different TOS episodes, a clever way of getting the ENT cast wear TOS uniforms, making TOS starship look and feel more advanced than NX-01 (an astounding achievement which nullified one of the most valid criticisms of ENT). There were more, but these are just from top of my head.
Hmmmm....well, I guess that depends on how you define inventive. I don't think that any of those things are inventive. They just produced 2 episodes of some random show, they didn't produce 2 episodes of Enterprise. We're short 2 Enterprise episodes because they decided to do two episodes of fanwank. I could go along with "clever" I suppose--it was clever, in a way. But I wouldn't call it inventive. Thanks for being specific, though--that's what we need to produce good discussion, facts to back up opinions!
This is true, and I personally like the alternate origin given. It is interesting that Mirror Spock gets better character development in the MUS, and the ending actually does suggest that the Empire might be politically altered, or at least weakened. It was written in the '80s, long before DS9 was conceived. Our crew from our universe briefly made an alliance with the mirror Klingons and Romulans against the Empire.
I guess there is nothing more to say. We have very strong disagreement about everything in this case, including the definition of inventive.
Not a problem for me, life would be dull if we all agreed!
Unless, of course, he intended for the Terran Empire to be conquered by its enemies.....
(For more, see The Sorrows of Empire by David Mack in the volume Star Trek: Mirror Universe: Glass Empires, just published last year.)
Mmmmmmm, no. Again, read The Sorrows of Empire.
That might be good attempt to rationalize but it ´s not any more canonical than any other literature.
Unless, of course, he intended for the Terran Empire to be conquered by its enemies.....
(For more, see The Sorrows of Empire by David Mack in the volume Star Trek: Mirror Universe: Glass Empires, just published last year.)
Mmmmmmm, no. Again, read The Sorrows of Empire.
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But it does fit with the fourth-season theme of finally getting around to the Building of the Federation. This is counterpoint: how the History of the Galaxy goes hideously, almost irredeemably wrong. It's what happens if a galactic power built on might rather than communal interest succeeds.
As a way of showing, in rough form, the consequences of failure, the value of Archer's successes in other Federation-building episodes that season are put into relief.
That it also emphasizes the very important point that Constitution-class starships rule is a pleasant side effect.
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