I'm worried about the future of fanart.

[IRW Bloodwing]

Esp Trek fan art. A number of fan artists are trying to monetize their art, risking bringing the wrath of the rights holder down on all fan artists yet again. This wouldn't be the first time. I'm old enough to remember the 90s crackdown, for example, and we ALL remember what happened in fanfilms.

Star Trek belongs to the studio, not the fans. We might wish it were otherwise, but those are the facts.

 

[Michael]

Well, I think you’re painting an unnecessarily bleak picture, because I'm not sure I see any evidence of what you are mentioning. Sure, there’s always artists who’ll offer their skills for others to commission or making the products of their fan art available to purchase, but practically never at a scale like we’ve witnessed with fan films. The rights’ holders cracked down on fan film productions for two reasons: (1.) because there were concerns that they could lead to brand confusion with the actual, official product (with fan films looking increasingly more professional and featuring so many Trek alumni) and (2.) because every other fan film would run crowdfunding campaigns raking in thousands of dollars on an IP that wasn’t theirs. I don’t really see anything like that happening with fan artists. Anyone who’s monetizing their art based on an existing IP is operating in a legally dubious area, but on the other hand I don’t seriously think Paramount will start to crack down on an artist making a few bucks on drawing a picture of Spock anytime soon.

EDIT to add: I do worry about the future of fan art, but not in the way you are talking about. My worry is about how almost none of it is happening on classic message boards any more. Young fan artists share their work on social media today, like Instagram, Discord or X/Twitter, maybe on dedicated art communities like DeviantArt and ArtStation. But not 90s style bulletin boards. I’m not bitter about it, but it’s interesting to observe. And I often wonder if we at the Trek BBS should at least try to have a presence on some of these platforms to not totally lose relevance. Creating a dedicated Trek BBS Fan Art account on Instagram has been on my to do list for a while at this point.

 

[Mage]

What happened in the 90s?

 

[FormerLurker]

Put simply:
If you are doing fanart, selling originals is okay, as it is brand recognition for the IP holder. Selling prints, i.e. multiple copies of the same image, is not okay as that is capitalizing on an IP that is not yours.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Creating a dedicated Trek BBS Fan Art account on Instagram has been on my to do list for a while at this point.

For the contest winners?

 

[publiusr]

Another thing to realize is that many of us have to work two jobs--no time for creativity.

The GEC was big in the 1990s...lots of blueprints and fan art late 80s-90s.

 

[Michael]

What happened in the 90s?

Good question. I’m not sure what exactly @IRW Bloodwing is referring to there.

Put simply:
If you are doing fanart, selling originals is okay, as it is brand recognition for the IP holder. Selling prints, i.e. multiple copies of the same image, is not okay as that is capitalizing on an IP that is not yours.

Can’t say I’ve ever heard of this distinction. Both should be equally problematic in terms of IP rights. Say you produce a very limited run of ten art prints, all individualized by way of being numbered and signed — why would that be significantly different to only selling originals? In a world where a big chunk of artists is working digitally, what even is an “original” anymore?

For the contest winners?

Not exclusively, but yeah, that could be one thing to put on there every month. But I also thought it might be neat highlighting particular projects that are happening here. All with the consent of the artists involved, of course. Would also be nice to connect with some of the artists posting here who also post on Instagram. Might lead to some interesting cross-pollination and more people becoming aware of this place existing. At least that’s my thinking.

The GEC was big in the 1990s...

The what?

 

[DEWLine]

Galactic Engineering Concordance, if memory serves...?

 

[SCE2Aux]

Not exclusively, but yeah, that could be one thing to put on there every month. But I also thought it might be neat highlighting particular projects that are happening here. All with the consent of the artists involved, of course. Would also be nice to connect with some of the artists posting here who also post on Instagram. Might lead to some interesting cross-pollination and more people becoming aware of this place existing. At least that’s my thinking.

I think this is a fascinating idea. My initial online fandom experience was on traditional forums back in the early 00s, and I still prefer them as they are by nature a little slower paced, and I prefer to think about what I want to write before I press the Post button. I have also noticed that fan art has been increasingly migrating to instagram, pinterest, facebook and twitter, which introduces a social media aspect which I find daunting considering (gestures broadly) the way the world is these days.

Discords are a different beast again, because they are usually smaller communities that are useful for problem solving and skills development in niche interests like fan art, and that's cool, but I still like my forums.

But having this forum make some posts on instagram sounds interesting as it does the cross pollination thing you mentioned, whilst allowing increasingly older folks like myself (and I imagine there aren't many of us here under 35?) to dip our toes into platforms that we aren't overly familiar with.

 

[IRW Bloodwing]

Well, I think you’re painting an unnecessarily bleak picture, because I'm not sure I see any evidence of what you are mentioning.

Look around places like Deviantart. Lots of people whose art is mostly fanart either selling it outright or requiring subscriptions to even see them.

 

[IRW Bloodwing]

What happened in the 90s?

There was a surge in copyright takedowns and C&D letters from the studio to fan artists.

 

[Michael]

Look around places like Deviantart. Lots of people whose art is mostly fanart either selling it outright or requiring subscriptions to even see them.

I didn’t doubt that. What I meant is, where’s the evidence that the rights’ holders suddenly started to go after these folks in any significant fashion? Certainly not to a degree that it would spell “the end of fan art”.

There was a surge in copyright takedowns and C&D letters from the studio to fan artists.

And yet fan art still exists and thrives …

I think this is a fascinating idea. My initial online fandom experience was on traditional forums back in the early 00s, and I still prefer them as they are by nature a little slower paced, and I prefer to think about what I want to write before I press the Post button. I have also noticed that fan art has been increasingly migrating to instagram, pinterest, facebook and twitter, which introduces a social media aspect which I find daunting considering (gestures broadly) the way the world is these days.

Discords are a different beast again, because they are usually smaller communities that are useful for problem solving and skills development in niche interests like fan art, and that's cool, but I still like my forums.

But having this forum make some posts on instagram sounds interesting as it does the cross pollination thing you mentioned, whilst allowing increasingly older folks like myself (and I imagine there aren't many of us here under 35?) to dip our toes into platforms that we aren't overly familiar with.

Yes! I think I’m very much the same in almost everything you’re saying here. And I actually think your current NX-01 refit project would be a perfect thing to try and introduce to a wider audience out there. I’ll give it some more thought how best to approach this and then start a dedicated thread where we can talk about this idea. (Because, let’s face it, there’s also bound to be people who don’t want anything to do with social media. And I very much want to be mindful of those people as well. )

 

[Cyfa]

I do worry about the future of fan art, but not in the way you are talking about. My worry is about how almost none of it is happening on classic message boards any more. Young fan artists share their work on social media today, like Instagram, Discord or X/Twitter, maybe on dedicated art communities like DeviantArt and ArtStation. But not 90s style bulletin boards. I’m not bitter about it, but it’s interesting to observe. And I often wonder if we at the Trek BBS should at least try to have a presence on some of these platforms to not totally lose relevance. Creating a dedicated Trek BBS Fan Art account on Instagram has been on my to do list for a while at this point.

For the contest winners?

Not exclusively, but yeah, that could be one thing to put on there every month. But I also thought it might be neat highlighting particular projects that are happening here. All with the consent of the artists involved, of course. Would also be nice to connect with some of the artists posting here who also post on Instagram. Might lead to some interesting cross-pollination and more people becoming aware of this place existing. At least that’s my thinking.

I think this is a fascinating idea. My initial online fandom experience was on traditional forums back in the early 00s, and I still prefer them as they are by nature a little slower paced, and I prefer to think about what I want to write before I press the Post button. I have also noticed that fan art has been increasingly migrating to instagram, pinterest, facebook and twitter, which introduces a social media aspect which I find daunting considering (gestures broadly) the way the world is these days.

Discords are a different beast again, because they are usually smaller communities that are useful for problem solving and skills development in niche interests like fan art, and that's cool, but I still like my forums.

But having this forum make some posts on instagram sounds interesting as it does the cross pollination thing you mentioned, whilst allowing increasingly older folks like myself (and I imagine there aren't many of us here under 35?) to dip our toes into platforms that we aren't overly familiar with.

Yes! I think I’m very much the same in almost everything you’re saying here. And I actually think your current NX-01 refit project would be a perfect thing to try and introduce to a wider audience out there. I’ll give it some more thought how best to approach this and then start a dedicated thread where we can talk about this idea. (Because, let’s face it, there’s also bound to be people who don’t want anything to do with social media. And I very much want to be mindful of those people as well. )

~ I'm intrigued by this idea, particularly as the only presences I have online are here, on Blogger, and a very limited presence on DeviantArt (not least because, like @SCE2Aux, I prefer the slower pace). The possibility of a few pieces of my fan art appearing on another more popular platform means my little fantasy of Eugene Cordero or Mike McMahan seeing my Rutherford Action Figures (by Plaything!) may come a little closer to reality

.
However, at the same time, I don't really want my art work (be it fan art or original) spread across the internet. I had a big purge on DevA a couple of years ago, whittling down my deviations to only two pieces (it's up to 15 now and I'm considering another purge) - the only reason I didn't delete my account was because it's about the only place I can find and admire other art. Privacy & personal data issues on X/Twitter concern me, as they do on Facebook & Instagram (is IG still part of Facebook/Meta/whatever it is?), which is the main reason why I don't have accounts. I did start to look into Bluesky and Mastodon but quickly realised that the second big reason I don't have much of an online presence is that I don't have time - I can barely manage TrekBBS and my blog

Anyway, enough about me. I think this might also be a way of encouraging more artists to join in here. If they see some of our fan art on Instagram or wherever, they might follow the link back and have a go in one of the monthly challenges or set up an art thread of their own.

 

[FormerLurker]

Can’t say I’ve ever heard of this distinction. Both should be equally problematic in terms of IP rights. Say you produce a very limited run of ten art prints, all individualized by way of being numbered and signed — why would that be significantly different to only selling originals? In a world where a big chunk of artists is working digitally, what even is an “original” anymore?

This is the main distinction I've heard of, cited by comic artists for decades. John Byrne can draw Batman or Spider-Man for anyone that wants it because the IP holders, Marvel/Disney and DC/Warners recognize that what they want is the character in John Byrne's art style. An artist producing a limited run of, say, 10 signed, numbered prints isn't producing art to the individual buyer's wants but their own, and selling it to capitalize on it apart from the IP holder's IP. I won't put art on my DeviantArt that has proprietary characters in it for sale for this reason.

As to what constitutes and "original" in the digital age, that is a debate for the ages.

 

[Atolm]

That's why I design ships the way I do... They are all mine...
Also I worry about fan art because of AI... many artists are losing commissioned work for AI generated stuff... What can I tell you it is what they call "progress". Same thing happened to physical modelling in favour of 3d modelling, which has kinda come back by way of 3d printing... but it is not the same.
But I tell you what, I'd rather be drawing on the walls of a cave, and sculpting with my hands, then going in for this type of "progress".
Now does that make me an old hack? A dinosaur if you will? Sure. I don't even have a smartphone, and I don't even use my flip-phone accept in emergencies (especially since the concept of a payphone has gone practically extinct)... But I don't expect the world to yield to myself or others like me... It won't. And to tell you the truth, I don't care anymore. Everything has pretty much gone down the crapper in the name of "progress". As I am sure generations who came before me have stated.
If this is progress, then the fanart that you speak of, is long dead. Long live the new fanart.

 

[Firebird]

However, at the same time, I don't really want my art work (be it fan art or original) spread across the internet. I had a big purge on DevA a couple of years ago, whittling down my deviations to only two pieces (it's up to 15 now and I'm considering another purge) - the only reason I didn't delete my account was because it's about the only place I can find and admire other art. Privacy & personal data issues on X/Twitter concern me, as they do on Facebook & Instagram (is IG still part of Facebook/Meta/whatever it is?), which is the main reason why I don't have accounts. I did start to look into Bluesky and Mastodon but quickly realised that the second big reason I don't have much of an online presence is that I don't have time - I can barely manage TrekBBS and my blog

I have my art spread out in a few locations - Instagram, Twitter, Pixiv, Bluesky, Reddit, TikTok, TrekBBS, Sufficient Velocity, and DeviantArt. I also put it up on my personal Facebook as well, but that's mainly to maintain a holding location so I can more easily save and post the art to TBBS and SV when I'm on desktop. The process can get a bit annoying when I blast out the posts across the various platforms, but it helps to copy the wording of my original Instagram post to the others and edit it down accordingly.

The only annoying thing is that I really haven't gotten much traction across the platforms. I don't know how other artists who put out work less often than I do and at lower quality have upwards of 10x more interaction than some of my best work.

 

[somebuddyX]

I probably sound like an asshole but it feels like a contradiction to me for fanartists to try to make money off someone else's IP. I've never tried to do it and I don't really have any sympathy for anyone that's pinged trying to do it. I don't care if the IP is owned by a corporation or one dude, they both deserve the same legal protections and the right to enforce them.

 

[IRW Bloodwing]

I didn’t doubt that. What I meant is, where’s the evidence that the rights’ holders suddenly started to go after these folks in any significant fashion?

That's what people were saying right before a certain fanfilm producer got himself sued and several major fanfilm productions shut down too...

 

[Rekkert]

The difference there was that said certain fan film producer crossed several red lines despite repeated warnings and even his associates telling him what he was doing was wrong... Let's not paint that as anything other than one man's hubris ruining things for everyone.

As someone who lived off of doing Trek art commissions for 5 years and is now working in an official capacity because of said fan art, I'm not as worried about a crackdown (AI worries me a hell of a lot more). I've spoken about this at length with multiple artists who either have monetized YT channels, Patreons, or other revenue streams like that, and at the end of the day what's important is addressing and understanding that you don't own the IP and that you're beholden to the owners.

You're essentially playing in someone else's backyard, and it's thanks to them that you're even allowed there, so if they make any request you shut up and do as you're told. The problem is when people (ahem, Peters) suddenly want to claim they're the owners of the house and it's their backyard after all, with 0 ground to stand on.

And there's something else. An aspect of IP law that is often forgotten is that license holders have the legal right to demand the IP owner cracks down on fan made projects if they deem them to affect their commercial performance. So if, for example, a painter paid to have the official license and is making Star Trek themed paintings, but another artist is doing them as fan art and selling them at conventions, then the painter with the license can legally demand Paramount issues a C&D on the fan artist, and Paramount would have their hands forced on the matter. What I'm trying to get at with this point is that often times the IP owner themselves don't give a crap about fan art, but a license holder forces them to act. I know from conversations with people involved that this exact scenario has happened multiple times regarding the Trek IP. Even in cases where the fan art in question is completely free, the monetary gain of the artist doesn't impact the licensee's ability to demand action is taken against them.

 

[Michael]

~ I'm intrigued by this idea, particularly as the only presences I have online are here, on Blogger, and a very limited presence on DeviantArt (not least because, like @SCE2Aux, I prefer the slower pace). The possibility of a few pieces of my fan art appearing on another more popular platform means my little fantasy of Eugene Cordero or Mike McMahan seeing my Rutherford Action Figures (by Plaything!) may come a little closer to reality

.
However, at the same time, I don't really want my art work (be it fan art or original) spread across the internet. I had a big purge on DevA a couple of years ago, whittling down my deviations to only two pieces (it's up to 15 now and I'm considering another purge) - the only reason I didn't delete my account was because it's about the only place I can find and admire other art. Privacy & personal data issues on X/Twitter concern me, as they do on Facebook & Instagram (is IG still part of Facebook/Meta/whatever it is?), which is the main reason why I don't have accounts. I did start to look into Bluesky and Mastodon but quickly realised that the second big reason I don't have much of an online presence is that I don't have time - I can barely manage TrekBBS and my blog

Anyway, enough about me. I think this might also be a way of encouraging more artists to join in here. If they see some of our fan art on Instagram or wherever, they might follow the link back and have a go in one of the monthly challenges or set up an art thread of their own.

Thanks for giving your perspective on this idea. I totally hear you, and I suspect there’s lots of people on here who feel the same about this. Which is why — if we were to do something like this — it would only ever happen with the express agreement of the artists involved. I wouldn’t even dream of just posting someone’s work from here to somewhere else without asking first.

In my mind the two main benefits of doing something like this would be to (1.) make people aware this place and the excellent art that’s being posted here exists and (2.) promote artists’ online presences elsewhere on the net and give them more exposure.

Regarding the reluctantly of your art being spread around the internet: What could be an option is post it as an Instagram story, which will disappear after 24 hours. That wouldn’t keep anyone from doing a screenshot, of course, but at least that way its presence wouldn’t intentionally be permanent.

One interesting concept I’ve seen is this one: On a Discord server dedicated to voxel art that I’ve been on for a while they have a thread where people can post their art and once it receives a certain amount of likes it automatically gets posted to their Instagram and Twitter accounts. I don’t think we would need it automated like that, but I like the idea that it’s a thread where people submit their art on their own volition and the community basically votes it into being shared on social media. Maybe between curated posts highlighting the work of specific artists and their projects we could try something like this?