I'm new here, so Voyager fans help me out. Janeway's promotion???

[DonIago]

I still think she should have gone back a few weeks earlier and saved poor Joe Carey from a meaningless death.

I've never been thrilled with the time travel in Endgame though, because there's no indication that it ultimately makes things better for anyone other than the Voyager crew, and possibly not even them. It's easy for Janeway to say nothing of import happened during those intervening years, but even if we assume she's being honest how can she possibly know that? And who's to say the Federation's any better off with Voyager returning early? Things didn't seem particularly dire for the Feds in the original timeline.

 

[Brit]

I've never been thrilled with the time travel in Endgame though, because there's no indication that it ultimately makes things better for anyone other than the Voyager crew, and possibly not even them. It's easy for Janeway to say nothing of import happened during those intervening years, but even if we assume she's being honest how can she possibly know that? And who's to say the Federation's any better off with Voyager returning early? Things didn't seem particularly dire for the Feds in the original timeline.

That doesn't mean that they were not, only that it isn't mentioned. When time is reset everyone gets a second chance, everyone. It is still up to the individual to make what he will of his life.

I do agree with you however on the subject of Joe Carey's death, but I totally blame the writers. You see they wanted a death for shock value, just the same kind of death trek lit gave Kathryn Janeway. It was stupid, and a total waste in both instances, serving no purpose other than to kill off someone.

Brit

 

[exodus]

I still think she should have gone back a few weeks earlier and saved poor Joe Carey from a meaningless death.

I've never been thrilled with the time travel in Endgame though, because there's no indication that it ultimately makes things better for anyone other than the Voyager crew, and possibly not even them. It's easy for Janeway to say nothing of import happened during those intervening years, but even if we assume she's being honest how can she possibly know that? And who's to say the Federation's any better off with Voyager returning early? Things didn't seem particularly dire for the Feds in the original timeline.

......and here I was so sure my "the writers are God in the Trek Universe and wouldn't allow that to happen" speech had convinced you.

 

[froot]

I swear, I think some of us are just watching it for the cool special EFX.

*looks guilty*

 

[exodus]

I swear, I think some of us are just watching it for the cool special EFX.

*looks guilty*

I knew it!

Quick, LYNCH THEM!!!!

 

[froot]

Ack! *hides*

It's not my fault things blowing up in space look cool Maybe they shouldn't make it look so neat.

But, yeah. I dunno. I still get blown away that the same people who get all sorts of flipped out over the brief(!) Janeway cameo turn right around and ask VOY fans why "Before Dishonor" bothered them. One was written as a quick cameo. The other was pure, unadulterated fanboy rage complete with a middle finger pointed in the direction of anyone who ever dared to like Janeway. "There, she's a moron and Picard wins. Suck it."

I like all the captains. I really, really do. I don't think Janeway giving some quick orders to Picard was saying anything about her character being better or worse than anyone else. It was a simple shout-out, nothing more. Kirk specifically told Picard not to get promoted. Hell, Kirk himself didn't even want to be promoted.

 

[DonIago]

I don't care for the Janeway cameo, but I'd never say I "flip out" over it. I think my main problem with it is how generic it is. It does chafe -a little bit- seeing Picard taking orders from Janeway when I consider Picard the better captain, but...well...not to tick off the Janeway fans, but consider the behaviors we've seen most admirals exhibit...

BD never bothered me either. I did think Janeway should have taken the Q's warning more seriously, but given the traits we've seen her exhibit before it's not surprising that she didn't, and it's not as though Picard always listened to Q either. Sometimes Our Heroes don't get the gloriously meaningful deaths they all deserve.

I do think BD was a bit over the top in general...but really, it's a Peter David book. What did you expect? Given that the origins of the idea for Janeway's death have never, AFAIK, been made explicitly clear, it's not fair to lay all the blame at David's feet in any case. Besides, the door was left open for her to return in some manner at a later date in any case.

Once again the writers face a no-win scenario...they shake things up and get attacked for it...if they never shake things up, they'll be charged with being afraid to mess with the status quo.

 

[froot]

I don't care for the Janeway cameo, but I'd never say I "flip out" over it. I think my main problem with it is how generic it is. It does chafe -a little bit- seeing Picard taking orders from Janeway when I consider Picard the better captain, but...well...not to tick off the Janeway fans, but consider the behaviors we've seen most admirals exhibit...

BD never bothered me either. I did think Janeway should have taken the Q's warning more seriously, but given the traits we've seen her exhibit before it's not surprising that she didn't, and it's not as though Picard always listened to Q either. Sometimes Our Heroes don't get the gloriously meaningful deaths they all deserve.

I do think BD was a bit over the top in general...but really, it's a Peter David book. What did you expect? Given that the origins of the idea for Janeway's death have never, AFAIK, been made explicitly clear, it's not fair to lay all the blame at David's feet in any case. Besides, the door was left open for her to return in some manner at a later date in any case.

Once again the writers face a no-win scenario...they shake things up and get attacked for it...if they never shake things up, they'll be charged with being afraid to mess with the status quo.

I know it's not a BD thread, but I felt pretty strongly that she was purposely an OOC moron through that whole book. I'm okay with Janeway being killed off. I thought she was going to die at the end of the show, to be honest, as she's always struck me as a bit tragic. However, I wasn't okay with the way the death was handled. It wasn't all Peter David's fault, but I swear I could almost see the sneer coming through the text. Compare "Before Dishonor" with "Full Circle" and see the difference - Kristen Beyer should have been the one to write the death if PB wanted it so damn bad. She has real affection for the characters and it shows. She spent that whole book trying to clean up BD's mess and show some love to the VOY fans.

TL;DR, an author who didn't hate Janeway should have written her death. Period. I mean... my God, if Picard had been killed like that... hell, I'd be mad about that too. I like Picard. It's not that she shouldn't have died. Shaking things up is fine.

I bring up the book because it's part of this whole Janeway vs. Picard thing. Just like it chafes you to see her hand out orders to Picard, it chafes me to see her ignore his good advice and derp around with a Borg cube and die, thus making Picard the "winner" and Janeway the idiot. It almost felt like a direct response to that cameo in Nemesis.

That's why I recommend BD to anyone who's still bothered over Nemesis. I figure if it was Peter David's personal form of therapy for that perceived injustice, it'll work for anyone who reads it as well.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

^^I agree with froot

 

[infinix]

Ack! *hides*

It's not my fault things blowing up in space look cool Maybe they shouldn't make it look so neat.

But, yeah. I dunno. I still get blown away that the same people who get all sorts of flipped out over the brief(!) Janeway cameo turn right around and ask VOY fans why "Before Dishonor" bothered them. One was written as a quick cameo. The other was pure, unadulterated fanboy rage complete with a middle finger pointed in the direction of anyone who ever dared to like Janeway. "There, she's a moron and Picard wins. Suck it."

I like all the captains. I really, really do. I don't think Janeway giving some quick orders to Picard was saying anything about her character being better or worse than anyone else. It was a simple shout-out, nothing more. Kirk specifically told Picard not to get promoted. Hell, Kirk himself didn't even want to be promoted.

I have actually never read Before Dishonor. And I guess my attitude towards the Janeway cameo is part of me wanting to indite VOY for its over-all poor writing and horrible use of character. The fact that Janeway was promoted to Admiral is the biggest thing I can point to to show that VOY butchered a character and a story.

I will now go find "Before Dishonor", read it, and report back.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

This is a perfect picture:

 

[Guy Gardener]

but the real question is what would this do for Janeways sexlife?

She swears black and blue that she will not sleep with a subordinate, but now she's an Admiral on Earth. On one side you have to sigh that now almost every one in the fleet is her subordinate but on the other hand, all those billions of human civilians are completely fair game and in no way too awe ridden by her throat jewellery to approach her. .

No more excuses.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

If Janeway, one of my all time most beloved Trek characters was gong to DIE in a Treklit book than I had better be crying by the end of it. Not because I don't agree with Treklit killing her off but because it is SO SO SAD. Emotionally wrenching. And that is exactly what we Did. Not. Get. Because the writer wrote the whole thing like he was sitting on the toilet having a shit and had to hurry up and finish the stupid book about that stupid female captain so he could get back to doing man stuff he gave a fig about.

I threw BD across the room after plowing through it's horribly written dribble. I've never liked Peter David's writing at all, I thought Imzadi was the most embarrassing fanwank I've ever read, but I did keep trying since other people thought he was great. NOW, having seen the depths of vacuous trash he can pump out I will never read him again.

I don't care whether it was his idea or the publisher's idea to kill her off. It doesn't matter because the writing is a piece of utter crap and Janeway is unrecognizable. The story is ridiculous and actually reads like David is making fun of treklit, Janeway, and varying others. "The Borg ate Pluto" yeah. Call it that and turn the whole piece of crap into a parody, wouldn't be funny but might actually be believable as something a publisher would churn out.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't believe that Janeway can die.

Not because she is exceptional or magnificent.

(But she is.)

It's because he crew is so unquantifiable arrogant.

After Doomsday killed Superman back in '93, there was a little fipside bullshit story squashed in the last 5 pages of some thing else, were some nobody 3rd rate hero travels back in time to save Superman, and then Just as he about to divert the deathblow, some other nobody second rate hero who is actually one of those "time travel specialists" sort of peopel chases down the situation and asks the most important question... "What about next Time? Sure you can go back in time right now and save him from a fairly Nobel death but what about next time some ne kills Superman, are you going to save him again? And the time after that and the time after that? What right do you have to make this man into an immortal?"

Time travel.

One of them is going to save her.

No matter the cost.

It's usually Kim and his frakking Oedipus Complex.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't believe that Janeway can die.

Not because she is exceptional or magnificent.

(But she is.)

It's because he crew is so unquantifiable arrogant.

After Doomsday killed Superman back in '93, there was a little fipside bullshit story squashed in the last 5 pages of some thing else, were some nobody 3rd rate hero travels back in time to save Superman, and then Just as he about to divert the deathblow, some other nobody second rate hero who is actually one of those "time travel specialists" sort of peopel chases down the situation and asks the most important question... "What about next Time? Sure you can go back in time right now and save him from a fairly Nobel death but what about next time some ne kills Superman, are you going to save him again? And the time after that and the time after that? What right do you have to make this man into an immortal?"

Time travel.

One of them is going to save her.

No matter the cost.

It's usually Kim and his frakking Oedipus Complex.

QUOTED AND BOLDED FOR TRUTH!

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I've read this whole thread, and I've got one question that'll frame my responses:

Which Janeway is being talked about in the original post?

Because if it's the Endgame Vice Admiral Janeway with the All Good Things/The Visitor uniform, that's not the same person as the Captain Janeway with the DS9/VOY uniform that we saw for 7 years. The Endgame Vice Admiral Janeway had to endure 23 years of traveling through the Delta Quadrant, on top of Tuvok going crazy, Seven and Chakotay dying, etc. In fact, all the stuff that she had to endure is why she went back in time to help Captain Janeway avoid turning out the way that Endgame Vice Admiral Janeway did.

So, if anyone was going to be punished, it would be Endgame Vice Admiral Janeway, not Captain Janeway, who, if you remember from watching Endgame was all in favor of destroying the transwarp hub, as opposed to selfishly using it to get home. It was only by Endgame Vice Admiral Janeway sacrificing herself that allows them to both destroy the transwarp hub and go home.

Now, moving on to the promotion:

-More first contacts than any other Starfleet captain (Pretty much any new race or group encountered period).
-Survived more encounters with the Borg than any other Starfleet captain (possibly excepting Picard)
-Dealt the Borg one of the biggest blows ever (which, if you don't count the Trek Lit novels, could possibly even be a death blow)
-Hundreds of kiloquads of data on the Delta Quadrant, a heretofore unknown and unexplored area of the galaxy, were submitted in 2374. When Voyager actually physically returned home, and all during the time period with which they were able to establish contact with Starfleet Command, the amount of information increased dramatically.
-The ablative armor and transphasic torpedoes, which would provide a huge boost in tactical and defense capabilities.
-The Astrometrics Lab and any other upgrades/modifications that had been made during the 7-year journey, possibly including any modifications that the Borg had provided during the brief alliance.
-The various logs and readings, providing more information than Starfleet could ever have hoped to get on the effects of long-term, long-distance missions on Starfleet crew.
-The Delta Flyer, and numerous technological and engineering files providing yet more information on the durability and survivability of Starfleet vessels, particularly on long-range, long-term assignments with limited access to Starfleet facilities. More specifically, information on slipstream and transwarp technology, which would be a huge boon to Starfleet, particularly in regards to actual field tests.
-Acting as representatives of Starfleet and the Federation

And so on.

Plus, after 7 years of all of the above and 7 years of intense stress, not to mention frequent skirmishes and conflicts, far away from home and pretty much on your own for the most part, wouldn't you want to take it easy for a while?

In regards to Before Dishonor:

I absolutely, positively hate that book. I sold it to Half-Price Books as soon as I was able. I didn't recognize Janeway at all (it doesn't help that Peter David doesn't like her anyway), and found it by turns bizarre, inappropriate, and flat-out idiotic. It is why I refuse to buy any more of his books, period. Not just because of Janeway, but because it was a horrible book period. Janeway could have stayed alive (and by stayed alive, I specifically mean considered to still be alive, since I am convinced she is alive, with the Female Q, and is just waiting to come back) and I wouldn't have changed my mind (though I would have been happier).

 

[HoneyBLilly]

^^^ Totally agree Valeris. And you and I have the same theory about the novels. She'll come back. And hopefully soon.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

^^^ Totally agree Valeris. And you and I have the same theory about the novels. She'll come back. And hopefully soon.

I hope so too.

I'm rereading my review of Before Dishonor (see here) and, I'm ashamed to say, at one point I actually voice the words "I was somewhat glad when Janeway died. Her character in the novels was so hypocritical that I almost didn't believe it."

 

[Guy Gardener]

Valeris said

So, if anyone was going to be punished, it would be Endgame Vice Admiral Janeway, not Captain Janeway, who, if you remember from watching Endgame was all in favor of destroying the transwarp hub, as opposed to selfishly using it to get home. It was only by Endgame Vice Admiral Janeway sacrificing herself that allows them to both destroy the transwarp hub and go home.

You know how it's a crime to buy stolen property? You know how it's a crime to hide a person of interest when there's a manhunt looking for them? You know how it's a crime during an airjacking and the terrorist asks you if you can hold and train his machine on the other passengers while he goes to the toilet? Even if he asks REALLY REALLY nicely?

It's insider trading.

It's building an atomic bomb for the Libyans instead of giving them used pinball parts.

Fricking dominoes.

Captain Janeway was complicit after the fact in every crime Admiral janeway committed, ie destroying a timeline, when she decided to aid and abet the dastardly criminal instead of doing her job, which was to put the Admiral into Stasis and hand her over to Temporal Investigations after they got back to Earth.

Janeway was human to think that a cheat sheet was justifiable crime, but Captain Kim was committing suicide when he allowed the old lady to detonate the time line he was standing on from under his feet.

Every time one of us uses a prostitute, we're helping the drug trade, which is helping the flow of weapons into the third world. How many thousands of villages are burnt to the ground because sad bastards in the developed world need to keep their whistle wet?

Interconnective consequence.

Helping a criminal is becoming a criminal, and committing a small crime opens the frakking floodgates for larger crimes. Captain Janeway contaminated the timeline, risking a safe future where she got home, the federation was standing and the Borg could be managed, becuase she assumed that she wouldn't lie to herself, and then hen she came to terms that her older self was lying to her, kathy was cocksure that she could outssmart her older self...

People from the future are always assholes with strange agendas people in the present don't have a snowjob in hell for understanding... If that really was even Admiral Kathryn Janeway!

What sort of excuse is it that the futuregirl duped you because you didn't know that you could be outsmarted by a version of you with 30's more worth of coffee and bitchiness ramshuckling through her veins?

Magic beans anyone?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

^^^ Totally agree Valeris. And you and I have the same theory about the novels. She'll come back. And hopefully soon.

I hope so too.

I'm rereading my review of Before Dishonor (see here) and, I'm ashamed to say, at one point I actually voice the words "I was somewhat glad when Janeway died. Her character in the novels was so hypocritical that I almost didn't believe it."

I'm reading through your review thread. Your vitriol is positively exhilarating!!