I'm new here, so Voyager fans help me out. Janeway's promotion???

[HoneyBLilly]

^^Every action we make changes an event. Trek has lived by that for years. City on the Edge of Forever being one outing. Starfleet wasn't going to fault her because Admiral Janeway came back to the past, for all we know we could have gotten into another war with the Cardassians there and billions had died so while altering everything she could have possibly saved billions.

And pros outweigh the cons. While she sometimes used questionable means to finish the job she still got it done.

Not to mention the fact that the public probably fell in love with the story so had Starfleet done anything but promote her they could have had an uprising on hand.

 

[exodus]

Everything you are describing is valid, but those are ends. Those ends, while valid, doesn't change the fact that Janeway achieved them through a means which destroyed a time-line. Through out entire Trek history, we are always told that the Federation has values above and beyond other civilizations and that to the Federation, the ends never justify the means. Suddenly, we are shown that hey, it doesn't matter how you reach your goal, as long as you reach it?

Honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Janeway didn't gain or achieve any of what I talked about by changing any timeline. The Hansons diary, the info gathered by both the EMH & Chakotay in "Unity", the EMH developing a cure for the microvirus or holographic medical procedures(for example) have nothing to do with any changed timeline.

We will never know how the time-line is effected, all we know is that so much was changed the original time-line was basically obliterated. In the immediate, maybe Janeway saved billions of lives, but we don't know what the long term effect is. Remember in an episode of DS9 where a group of savants suggest that Federation surrender to the Dominion in the here and now because a better, longer lasting Galactic Federation would be born because of it? The future is unknown. We don't know the future created by Janeway is ultimately better or worse, and since the series ended at that point, we will never know.

Besides Kirk, we don't know the outcome on any future in Trek. We also have learned via Trek & sci-fi in general that there is no such thing as an original timeline but rather several alternate universes(Mirror, Mirror & Kes' future in Before & After" just to mention two) So there is nothing saying the first timeline we see in "Endgame" is the set and proper one.

If Janeway had found fought her way back through the unimatrix with the help of some random alien, I would have absolutely no problem with the promotion. But she didn't do that. She (the writers) decided to alter untold lives of untold billions for the rest of time by breaking the most sacred rule. The worst part is that she didn't suffer any consequences of her decisions. The writers couldn't stick to the established rules of the Federation and randomly decided to make Janeway an admiral for a throw away 20 sec role. That is my problem. The ends never justified the means. Not for the Federation.

How many rules did Kirk break?
Sisko is an accessory to murder, that's a huge rule breaker there. Sisko also poisoned an entire planet without approval.
Picard broke the Prime Directive and brought a woman from a pre-warp civilization onboard the Enterprise. Then contaminated that society by showing that he exists.

What consequences did we see any of them face?
Kirk still made Admiral, didn't he?
I have no doubt if Sisko hadn't died, he would have been offered a promotion too.

 

[infinix]

^^Every action we make changes an event. Trek has lived by that for years. City on the Edge of Forever being one outing. Starfleet wasn't going to fault her because Admiral Janeway came back to the past, for all we know we could have gotten into another war with the Cardassians there and billions had died so while altering everything she could have possibly saved billions.

And pros outweigh the cons. While she sometimes used questionable means to finish the job she still got it done.

Not to mention the fact that the public probably fell in love with the story so had Starfleet done anything but promote her they could have had an uprising on hand.

So what you are suggesting is that the Federation is really no better than the gov't we have today? That people hasn't really matured at all in the 400 years? Kirk should have gone back in time to save his son. Picard should have gone back in time to save Tasha Yar. Sisko should have gone back in time to save his wife. You see where I'm going with this? Any of those situations can be argued that the pros out-weight the cons.

And before you cite the example of Kirk going back for the whales, I'll tell you what the differences are. There was an immediate danger facing Earth and all Kirk needed were a couple of whales (and an accidental scientist.) But even in that instance, the writers went out of their way to make sure the scientist says sometime like "I have no family here, I will not be missed."

Current Janeway wasn't faced with a clear, present, and imminent danger that threatened to destroy Earth. She just wanted to get home. Nothing wrong with that, but she abandoned her morals. If she was going to do that, this story would've never gotten started. She couldn't just allowed the caretaker to send them home all those years ago. Even still, nothing wrong with Janeway changing her mind and her disposition and chose the short-cut, against her training and against the established rules of Federation. What becomes wrong is that she was rewarded for it.

Oh, and wasn't there an episode where voyager managed to establish a comm link with the Federation? I'm sure Voyager had already send back all of the first contacts and all of the valuable data back via the comm link. There was no real reason for Janeway and Voyager to be physically in the AQ to bring the data back.

 

[infinix]

What consequences did we see any of them face?
Kirk still made Admiral, didn't he?
I have no doubt if Sisko hadn't died, he would have been offered a promotion too.

Kirk was officially court martialed more than any other captain we know of. Picard broke the PD to fix it not to break it further. It was already broken not of his own doing. He didn't compound the problem by secretly healing anyone on that planet and promoting himself as god. I have to go back and look at what Sisko did in those two situations. My memory fails me.

Future Janeway broke the TPD, but current Janeway compounded it by going along with it. Capt. Janeway should've locked Adm. Janeway in the brig and kept her there. The story could've gone so many different ways without the time traveling.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

So what you are suggesting is that the Federation is really no better than the gov't we have today? That people hasn't really matured at all in the 400 years? Kirk should have gone back in time to save his son. Picard should have gone back in time to save Tasha Yar. Sisko should have gone back in time to save his wife. You see where I'm going with this? Any of those situations can be argued that the pros out-weight the cons.

Because the Federation hasn't matured. That much is obvious by the creation of the Maquis.

Why were the Maquis formed? Because Starfleet and the Federation decided that keeping a treaty was more important than someone's home. By doing that they caused more unrest because of the formation of the Maquis.

Gene Roddenberry's dream of the future was comendable, but in the long run governments make bad decisions sometimes. And as humans bad decisions are second nature.

 

[exodus]

What consequences did we see any of them face?
Kirk still made Admiral, didn't he?
I have no doubt if Sisko hadn't died, he would have been offered a promotion too.

Kirk was officially court martialed more than any other captain we know of. Picard broke the PD to fix it not to break it further. It was already broken not of his own doing. He didn't compound the problem by secretly healing anyone on that planet and promoting himself as god. I have to go back and look at what Sisko did in those two situations. My memory fails me.

Future Janeway broke the TPD, but current Janeway compounded it by going along with it. Capt. Janeway should've locked Adm. Janeway in the brig and kept her there. The story could've gone so many different ways without the time traveling.

Kirk can be court martialed, still make Admiral and still be admired by the public, his peers & held up as a sign of Starfleet history...................but Janeway can't?

 

[exodus]

So what you are suggesting is that the Federation is really no better than the gov't we have today? That people hasn't really matured at all in the 400 years? Kirk should have gone back in time to save his son. Picard should have gone back in time to save Tasha Yar. Sisko should have gone back in time to save his wife. You see where I'm going with this? Any of those situations can be argued that the pros out-weight the cons.

Because the Federation hasn't matured. That much is obvious by the creation of the Maquis.

Why were the Maquis formed? Because Starfleet and the Federation decided that keeping a treaty was more important than someone's home. By doing that they caused more unrest because of the formation of the Maquis.

Gene Roddenberry's dream of the future was comendable, but in the long run governments make bad decisions sometimes. And as humans bad decisions are second nature.

Exactly but even in Gene's vision of his Trek universe, govenrments still weren't perfect or else we wouldn't have been political enemies of the Klingons & Romulans for decades. The only way to avoid conflict with the Romulans was to make treaty not to cross each others boarders.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

What consequences did we see any of them face?
Kirk still made Admiral, didn't he?
I have no doubt if Sisko hadn't died, he would have been offered a promotion too.

Kirk was officially court martialed more than any other captain we know of. Picard broke the PD to fix it not to break it further. It was already broken not of his own doing. He didn't compound the problem by secretly healing anyone on that planet and promoting himself as god. I have to go back and look at what Sisko did in those two situations. My memory fails me.

Future Janeway broke the TPD, but current Janeway compounded it by going along with it. Capt. Janeway should've locked Adm. Janeway in the brig and kept her there. The story could've gone so many different ways without the time traveling.

Kirk can be court martialed, still make Admiral and still be admired by the public, his peers & held up as a sign of Starfleet history...................but Janeway can't?

Double standard. Janeway's a woman who shouldn't even be in command of a starship too. And we all know Kirk can do no wrong.

 

[exodus]

Kirk was officially court martialed more than any other captain we know of. Picard broke the PD to fix it not to break it further. It was already broken not of his own doing. He didn't compound the problem by secretly healing anyone on that planet and promoting himself as god. I have to go back and look at what Sisko did in those two situations. My memory fails me.

Future Janeway broke the TPD, but current Janeway compounded it by going along with it. Capt. Janeway should've locked Adm. Janeway in the brig and kept her there. The story could've gone so many different ways without the time traveling.

Kirk can be court martialed, still make Admiral and still be admired by the public, his peers & held up as a sign of Starfleet history...................but Janeway can't?

Double standard. Janeway's a woman who shouldn't even be in command of a starship too. Because we all know Kirk can do no wrong.

You know, it sure is starting to sound that way.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Kirk can be court martialed, still make Admiral and still be admired by the public, his peers & held up as a sign of Starfleet history...................but Janeway can't?

Double standard. Janeway's a woman who shouldn't even be in command of a starship too. Because we all know Kirk can do no wrong.

You know, it sure is starting to sound that way.

It usually is. And dare I bring up when Sisko tried to destroy that planet?

Had Janeway pulled that stunt people would have been calling for a new captain. And Paramount(the devils) probably would have replaced her. She was a woman so the ice she stood on was already thin and wearing down.

 

[exodus]

Double standard. Janeway's a woman who shouldn't even be in command of a starship too. Because we all know Kirk can do no wrong.

You know, it sure is starting to sound that way.

It usually is. And dare I bring up when Sisko tried to destroy that planet?

Had Janeway pulled that stunt people would have been calling for a new captain. And Paramount(the devils) probably would have replaced her. She was a woman so the ice she stood on was already thin and wearing down.

I brought up the Sisko issue.

Yeah, so much for Trek's lessons in equalty reaching it's fanbase huh?
I swear, I think some of us are just watching it for the cool special EFX.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

I brought up the Sisko issue.

Yeah, so much for Trek's lessons in equalty reaching it's fanbase huh?
I swear, I think some of us are just watching it for the cool special EFX.

Probably. Honestly, if the lessons in equality got through to everyone we wouldn't be having these issues in the Middle East.

And there's still a mindset in some people that women should be barefoot, pregnant, and making dinner in the kitchen. Afterall that's where a woman's supposed to be right?

 

[infinix]

Double standard. Janeway's a woman who shouldn't even be in command of a starship too. And we all know Kirk can do no wrong.

Honestly, it never occurred to me that her being a woman made any differences in why I don't like her. I will confess that my dislike for the VOY series might have transposed itself on Janeway, but that can't really be avoided. VOY's liberal use of temporal reboot, duplicate crews, and breaking the Warp barrier made it really hard for me to like the show. I found the way 7 of 9 was portrayed flew in the face of the progressive values of having a woman in command. Additionally, I'm no fan of Kirk. Kirk was a cowboy that got lucky a few times in an age where the Federation had no choice but to put up with him. I would've had no problem if Kira was put in charge over Sisko. I think she could have been a great leader and commander.

But back on topic, I really am discussing this on the merit of what Janeway did rather than what she has between to legs. Please don't dismiss my POV as being sexist. If Janeway had actually been used well as a character, I would have liked her (and the show) very much. But the reality is that Janeway (and the show) failed in many regards, with the finale being the worst.

I still stand by what I said. What Janeway had accomplished doesn't justify how she got back to the AQ. Most of what Janeway accomplished were transmitted to AQ already and her or Voyager didn't have to be physically back. Having time travel be the resolution to a 7 year series hurts me as a Trek fan. Like I said, if Time Travel was supposed to be an acceptable ends to a mean, then the entire series might as well have been for naught. And to have the captain be promoted is adding insult to injury.

 

[6079SmithW]

This is what I like about Voyager and the character of Janeway. She makes decisions that are controversial and sometimes downright immoral or illegal with regards to SF rules. This makes fans dislike or even hate the character. This is a good thing IMO. She isn't the ideal goodie two shoes captain like the rest of trek. Yeah, Sisko killed that planet and got Vrenak killed, and Archer pirated a ship, but those were exceptions. Janeway seemed to be more consistent in her disregards of SF morality. And that is a good thing because it has us loving and hating her and still arguing about the character's morality years later.

 

[exodus]

Double standard. Janeway's a woman who shouldn't even be in command of a starship too. And we all know Kirk can do no wrong.

Honestly, it never occurred to me that her being a woman made any differences in why I don't like her. I will confess that my dislike for the VOY series might have transposed itself on Janeway, but that can't really be avoided. VOY's liberal use of temporal reboot, duplicate crews, and breaking the Warp barrier made it really hard for me to like the show. I found the way 7 of 9 was portrayed flew in the face of the progressive values of having a woman in command. Additionally, I'm no fan of Kirk. Kirk was a cowboy that got lucky a few times in an age where the Federation had no choice but to put up with him. I would've had no problem if Kira was put in charge over Sisko. I think she could have been a great leader and commander.

But back on topic, I really am discussing this on the merit of what Janeway did rather than what she has between to legs. Please don't dismiss my POV as being sexist. If Janeway had actually been used well as a character, I would have liked her (and the show) very much. But the reality is that Janeway (and the show) failed in many regards, with the finale being the worst.

I still stand by what I said. What Janeway had accomplished doesn't justify how she got back to the AQ. Most of what Janeway accomplished were transmitted to AQ already and her or Voyager didn't have to be physically back. Having time travel be the resolution to a 7 year series hurts me as a Trek fan. Like I said, if Time Travel was supposed to be an acceptable ends to a mean, then the entire series might as well have been for naught. And to have the captain be promoted is adding insult to injury.

Even with all this said(disregrading bias), you still haven't addressed why Kirk can be court martialed and still be made Adimiral and Janeway can not. Why Janeway's actions hurt you as a Trek fan, why her promotion as insult to injury but Kirk's actions & promotion don't?

Plus you've offered no proof or evidence of your claim that Voyager already submitted any info they'd gathered from the DQ to the AQ. Do you have any?

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Plus you've offered no proof or evidence of your claim that Voyager already submitted any info they'd gathered from the DQ to the AQ. Do you have any?

They do in Pathfinder, at least that's what is said in the dialogue. But beyond that there is no other proof.

EDIT: Plus, obviously Voyager was good enough for some people or it wouldn't have had the decency to last seven years unlike the debacle of Star Trek: Enterprise and, dare I say it, Star Trek: the Original Series.

 

[DonIago]

Just so we're clear, Sisko never destroyed a planet. He did poison the atmosphere of one so that no -Maquis- species could live on it, but the episode itself states that the Cardassians can live there.

 

[infinix]

Even with all this said(disregrading bias), you still haven't addressed why Kirk can be court martialed and still be made Adimiral and Janeway can not. Why Janeway's actions hurt you as a Trek fan, why her promotion as insult to injury but Kirk's actions & promotion don't?

Plus you've offered no proof or evidence of your claim that Voyager already submitted any info they'd gathered from the DQ to the AQ. Do you have any?

Like I said, I am no fan of Kirk. But if I had to defend him, I will defend him in these two ways.

1. He was a captain nearing the birth of the Federation, before people really knew of the consequences of time travel. And he got lucky, really lucky.

2. He never just got up and decided to steal a ship for the sole purpose of traveling back in time to save his son and right his wrongs. He owned up to his decisions in his own way.

Don't you see that Janeway's version of time traveling removes any consequences of one's actions. Who cares that I may choose to go out and rob a bank today or shoot crack into my veins tomorrow. I can just travel through time and un-do what I did. Who cares if I do or don't get up the nerve to ask that girl out? I'll just come back in time and have a do-over.

Despite everything Janeway accomplished, I don't see how anyone can defend that line of thinking (which was condoned by Capt. Janeway). If what Adm. Janeway did was acceptable, Why wouldn't she go back in time a little bit further, before all of the other crew member's death and save them? Can you explain that?

Speaking of multiple time lines, within the TNG and VOY universe, there aren't multiple time lines. There is only one true time line, as "Year of Hell" and "Yesterday's Enterprise" suggests. It wasn't until JJ rebooted the entire story that we got the "Other Time Line" story. But that's outside the scope of this discussion.

 

[infinix]

Plus you've offered no proof or evidence of your claim that Voyager already submitted any info they'd gathered from the DQ to the AQ. Do you have any?

They do in Pathfinder, at least that's what is said in the dialogue. But beyond that there is no other proof.

EDIT: Plus, obviously Voyager was good enough for some people or it wouldn't have had the decency to last seven years unlike the debacle of Star Trek: Enterprise and, dare I say it, Star Trek: the Original Series.

Thanks for pointing out the episode I was referring to. And indeed, I am not suggesting that everyone should dislike VOY since I do recognize its values. However, the series finale also happened to be the final draw for me. It just completely destroyed the story.

Like I said, why should I care for this group of people if the whole while their captain could've (and eventually did) simply gone back in time to save them?

 

[USS Kongo]

Janesway's cameo was one of the truly fun moments of Nemesis for me. They really didn't have to cast her; they could have just gotten anybody to play an Admiral X who gives Picard his marchig orders. But having Janeway there was a nice touch, as well as being a nice shout out to Voyager.

And did she deserve the promotion to admiral? Oh hell yeah. As mentioned here in earlier posts, people have been promoted for doing a lot less than she did.

Sean