I'm kinda glad Singer didn't come back to X-Men

[Dream]

Magneto isn't stupid, and having characters act stupid just for the sake of a big fight scene is itself stupid. Good superhero movies work when the characters are treated like real people, rather than caricatures in tights.

What pissed me off the most about X3 was that scene with Magneto sending in the pawns to get shot in the final fight. What the hell happened to the Magneto from the first two movies that didn't want his people wiped out? Talk about character assassination.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Does anyone but me appreciate the irony of declaring things that occur in a world where superpowers exist "unrealistic"?

I shake my head in dismay and incredulity that someone would actually be advocating (as was done in previous posts) for a Superman movie without superfeats in it...

Cape work is PART AND PARCEL of the genre. Embrace the cape, don't run from it! You can have characters that react like real people emotionally AND who can lift skyscrapers with a thought!

 

[Manticore]

Does anyone but me appreciate the irony of declaring things that occur in a world where superpowers exist "unrealistic"?

I shake my head in dismay and incredulity that someone would actually be advocating (as was done in previous posts) for a Superman movie without superfeats in it...

Um...who's advocating a Superman movie without super-feats?

Cape work is PART AND PARCEL of the genre. Embrace the cape, don't run from it! You can have characters that react like real people emotionally AND who can lift skyscrapers with a thought!

I liked what someone said about how there's only so many breaks from reality that are possible before the typical moviegoer (who you need on one of these movies to be successful) gets taken out of the film. Thousands of humans who "mutate", giving them weird and, frankly, impossible powers? Fine, sure. Aliens and magic and stuff? Kind of pushing it there... Yellow and blue Spandex? Poof, moviegoers' interest gone.

It's a possible explanation as to why this happens.

Christ, I just realized, it's been almost nine years since the first X-men movie came out.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Magneto isn't stupid, and having characters act stupid just for the sake of a big fight scene is itself stupid. Good superhero movies work when the characters are treated like real people, rather than caricatures in tights.

What pissed me off the most about X3 was that scene with Magneto sending in the pawns to get shot in the final fight. What the hell happened to the Magneto from the first two movies that didn't want his people wiped out? Talk about character assassination.

Even among the "elite" there are those more elite than others. Magneto (at least as portrayed in the films) is a chessmaster, and knows that not all the pieces will survive the game. The higher the power level of the mutant, the more important they are to "the future", and thus need to be protected when possible.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Does anyone but me appreciate the irony of declaring things that occur in a world where superpowers exist "unrealistic"?

I shake my head in dismay and incredulity that someone would actually be advocating (as was done in previous posts) for a Superman movie without superfeats in it...

Um...who's advocating a Superman movie without super-feats?

Go back up the thread a page or so, they were talking about it there (how they wanted to next Superman movie to be a gritty crime drama with no superfeats).

Cape work is PART AND PARCEL of the genre. Embrace the cape, don't run from it! You can have characters that react like real people emotionally AND who can lift skyscrapers with a thought!

I liked what someone said about how there's only so many breaks from reality that are possible before the typical moviegoer (who you need on one of these movies to be successful) gets taken out of the film. Thousands of humans who "mutate", giving them weird and, frankly, impossible powers? Fine, sure. Aliens and magic and stuff? Kind of pushing it there... Yellow and blue Spandex? Poof, moviegoers' interest gone.

"Embracing the cape" does not necessarily mean "yellow and blue spandex". It means you're dealing with a genre where Gods and Living Legends walk the streets on a daily basis. Don't run from that...don't "pull them back" to "make them more human" (budget issues aside).

Arguing, for example, that Sandman makes a bad LA Spidey villain because his abilities aren't "realistic" is a load of horses***! You're talking about a universe where the bite of a radioactive (or gene-geneered) spider grants miraculous powers, not a slow and painful hostpital death.

To paraphrase Johnny from F4 1: "This is who we are...get used to it...better yet: EMBRACE it!"

 

[Anwar]

If memory serves, Singer was interested in casting Sigourney Weaver as the White Queen in what would have been his follow-up to X2--so the Hellfire Club was certainly a possibility for the film had he directed it.

Yes, and his version of the White Queen wasn't even going to he faithful to Emma Frost at all. He was planning on making her Counselor Troi, for crying out loud. The idea of a secret cabal of mutants who hold powerful roles in society would have just screwed up his "oppressed minority" theme so the real Hellfire Club couldn't be in the movies. No room for anything but the sheer basics for Singer.

 

[exodus]

As for Singer, I doubt he'd even bring the Hellfire Club into the series since a group of aristocratic Mutants with a secret society manipulating industries and governments would be seen as "too far out" for his X-Men movies and how the evil mutants are characterized solely by Magneto's terrorists. Dark Phoenix would be boring as hell if it was just Jean going nuts for the sake of plot.

I think you're assuming too much.

Dude, the audience and critics alike would complain that secret societies who dress up in outfits and manipulate events from the shadows belong in James Bond and not in Singer's X-Men. I'm starting to think most fans of the X-Men films are snobby types who are ashamed of the fact that X-Men began as a comic and are contemptuous of the term "Superhero".

Same with "Dark Knight" fans, I mean even Nolan himself sometimes seems like a guy whose ashamed that Batman is a comic character and says stuff like "Dark Knight isn't a superhero film, it's a down-to-earth crime drama!". There's no room for the fantastic with these folks.

Once again, I think you assume to much while making generalized statements with nothing to support it. I just read allot of: "Because I say so, it should be so." Sorry but I find your thinking is what creates films like "Batman & Robin".

 

[Anwar]

And I think squeezing everything super about Superheroes out of them is what gives us stuff like Deadbeat Dad Superman in "Returns". There's no room for wonder in today's "Superhero" movies.

It's like how Simpsons parodied Alan Moore's reinventions of some characters: "You like that I turned your favorite superhero into a heroin-addicted jazz critic whose NOT Radioactive?"

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

"Embracing the cape" does not necessarily mean "yellow and blue spandex". It means you're dealing with a genre where Gods and Living Legends walk the streets on a daily basis. Don't run from that...don't "pull them back" to "make them more human" (budget issues aside).

Well, yeah, superheroes comics are, at their core, adolescent power fantasies, which is fine, but in my opinion the general public needs something a little meatier to chew on. It just happens that X-Men has always had the "mutant as minorities" thing going on, and I think it's a much better starting point for a movie than "superheroes are really really powerful".

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Once again, I think you assume to much while making generalized statements with nothing to support it. I just read allot of: "Because I say so, it should be so." Sorry but I find your thinking is what creates films like "Batman & Robin".

"Batman & Robin" came about when the filmmakers decided to do a near-parody instead of treating the material seriously. They were shooting for "camp", not "wonder".

 

[darkwing_duck1]

"Embracing the cape" does not necessarily mean "yellow and blue spandex". It means you're dealing with a genre where Gods and Living Legends walk the streets on a daily basis. Don't run from that...don't "pull them back" to "make them more human" (budget issues aside).

Well, yeah, superheroes comics are, at their core, adolescent power fantasies, which is fine, but in my opinion the general public needs something a little meatier to chew on. It just happens that X-Men has always had the "mutant as minorities" thing going on, and I think it's a much better starting point for a movie than "superheroes are really really powerful".

The two are NOT mutually exclusive. You can give them "meatier fare" by having a serious storyline and characterization, just make sure you aren't neglecting the "super" part of superheroics.

How frakked up would the original Superman movie be if the producers had taken today's "realist" approach and cut out bits like the Fortress of Solitude (let's have Jor El send a diary with the baby instead that he can read), and had NO "superfeats" scenes (to keep the focus on the "realistic" aspects of the story)?

 

[Anwar]

A "more appealing" Superman, by the logic of "super"hero moves these days, would have him not able to use his eye beams, have him be vulnerable to bullets, not fly that much and fight some drug lord in some single neighborhood.

Never mind an epic film of him defending Earth from Darkseid would be much better and give the director and writers more to work with, a common audience DESPISES anything off the Earth.

 

[exodus]

"Embracing the cape" does not necessarily mean "yellow and blue spandex". It means you're dealing with a genre where Gods and Living Legends walk the streets on a daily basis. Don't run from that...don't "pull them back" to "make them more human" (budget issues aside).

Well, yeah, superheroes comics are, at their core, adolescent power fantasies, which is fine, but in my opinion the general public needs something a little meatier to chew on. It just happens that X-Men has always had the "mutant as minorities" thing going on, and I think it's a much better starting point for a movie than "superheroes are really really powerful".

The two are NOT mutually exclusive. You can give them "meatier fare" by having a serious storyline and characterization, just make sure you aren't neglecting the "super" part of superheroics.

How frakked up would the original Superman movie be if the producers had taken today's "realist" approach and cut out bits like the Fortress of Solitude (let's have Jor El send a diary with the baby instead that he can read), and had NO "superfeats" scenes (to keep the focus on the "realistic" aspects of the story)?

This doesn't make any sense because Donner's Superman still took place in the real world, it's didn't negate he was still an alien with powers. It's no different than Singer's X-Men. I doubt anybody missed Nightcrawler teleporting through the White House or Superman turning the world backwards to save Lois.

 

[Anwar]

Exactly, Donner knew how to make a movie about a man who could fly and still be fantastic while getting the audience to like it. He didn't openly reject the fantastic in Superman, like how Warner Bros is going to reject Superman's wonder with their "Dark Knight"-type remake or how Singer would've rejected more of X-Men's wonder if he'd gotten his hands on the Hellfire Club or Dark Phoenix.

 

[exodus]

Exactly, Donner knew how to make a movie about a man who could fly and still be fantastic while getting the audience to like it. He didn't openly reject the fantastic in Superman, like how Warner Bros is going to reject Superman's wonder with their "Dark Knight"-type remake or how Singer would've rejected more of X-Men's wonder if he'd gotten his hands on the Hellfire Club or Dark Phoenix.

Dude, with all due respect: Get over it.
Singer didn't do the Hellfire Club or Dark Phoenix, why keep complaining about something that never happened?

 

[Anwar]

The OP stated that he was glad Singer didn't get his hands on the Dark Phoenix story, and I agreed with him and outlined my own thoughts on it. Simple as that. And I also let others who agree with me in on the fact that Hollywood is also out to squeeze all the "super" out of their superhero movie projects. We live in an anti-wonder, anti-fantastic environment now. Superman is going to be remade as some gritty anti-superhero crime drama thing.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Where are you getting it from that Superman is going to be remade as a dark and gritty thing? There have been numerous rumours flying around but the official word seems to be that WB have no idea where to go next with the franchise. Mark Millar, the Wachowsi brothers and others have been linked to the series, but for now it appears to be 'resting.' There's nothing to suggest that a remake/sequel/ reboot is on the way, much less that it will be dark and gritty.

 

[Anwar]

Well, it was from Tvtropes wherein they listed how WB is planning on making the Superman reboot be "darker and grittier" like Nolan's Batman series is despite the fact that Nolan's movies aren't superhero movies and a superhero wouldn't work in that kind of environment.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ I wouldn't put too much stock in that, if I were you. As I said before, there have been rumours galore about what form the next Superman movie will take, most of them contradicting each other.

SR was dark, if not gritty, and failed to set the world alight, so I'd be surprised if they opted to do something similar with the next one, despite the success of TDK. I'd imagine that they'll probably go for something with a similar tone to Iron Man. Which would work for me. But until the project is officially announced, don't believe what you see anywhere.

Actually, until you see the movie onscreen, don't believe it ...

 

[Anwar]

SR didn't work because it wasn't a gritty crime drama about Superman fighting some crazy drug lord...

Honestly, a movie about him defending the world from Darkseid or Brainiac would work but no one wants to do that because the audience despises stories that aren't "down to Earth".