I'm kinda glad Singer didn't come back to X-Men

[Anwar]

Originally the whole Phoenix thing was that Jean ended up getting bombarded with cosmic radiation that enhanced her powers, like how the Fantastic Four got their abilities. Then they retconned it later so that there was an alien that gave Jean more power and made her Phoenix. At least I think that's what happened, I have to re-read the story again.

 

[FPAlpha]

Not that I'm saying that Ratner did any better, but here's why.

I just borrowed the Dark Phoenix Saga TPB from my library. It was the first time I've read it in years. Man, if there was a pitch perfect X-Men story, it was that. Simply blows every X-story of the past 20 years away (sorry Morrison and Whedon fans). As tired as the adjective "epic" is used to describe these types of stories is, it fits the Dark Phoenix Saga perfectly.

Which brings us to Bryan Singer.

The guy can't do epic, as evidenced by Superman Returns. And that's not his fault. He has an art house pedegree and I wouldn't expect him to wrap his head around such concepts as the Shi'ar Empire and the destruction of whole galaxies. But those are intergal to the DPS. Anything less diminishes the emotional impact of the storyline. Knowing Singer, he might have made Phoenix level a few buildings, maybe a continent or two if he had the guts. And since he already painted himself in the corner with the whole "realism" angle, there wouldn't have been nary an extraterrestrial in sight. In the hands of a more visonary filmaker, the third X-Men movie not only would have been the perfect oppurtunity to expand the Marvel Universe introducing non-mutant heroes, but the actual universe within the Marvel Universe if that makes sense. Singer, sad to say, doesn't have the ambition, range, and vision to properly adapt the DPS without making major concessions and watering it down until it's barely recognizable as the DPS.

So unless a really good animation group or that mysterious visionary filmaker steps up to the challenge, I'm afraid the real DPS will remain in the comic pages.

What you decry as "realism" angle i call the saviour of modern comic book movies.

You see.. having Wolverine in his yellow/blue Spandexsuit running around or in Cyclops skintight bodycondom would have made the X-movies utter failures.. normal people, i.e. those who didn't read the comics or have read them way back when they were kids would laugh at the movies and this genre would have reverted back to Batman & Robin style comicbook levels.

What makes Marvel movies work is that they take what could work in the real world, lose most of the silly costumes and try to present their heroes as normal folks who just have this special talent yet are people with their problems.. see Spiderman.

You want epic battles and stuff go see Michael Bay movies.. i bet if he would do the Dark Phoenix Saga you would see entire galaxis smashed to pieces in slow motion with modern rock songs blaring over the action.. you really want that kind of director to helm X-Men?

X2 is a near perfect superhero movie and i believe Singer would have delivered a good Phoenix Saga.. it wouldn't have been the comic version of it but you would get the core of it and i believe it would have been fine.

Superman suffered from being too big for any director.. Bay would have made a caricature of Batman, Spielberg would have tried to make an entertaining tale out of it and maybe failed to grasp the core of Superman etc. Singer had little chance to deliver the perfect Superman movie.. he couldn't satisfy everybody and, in my opinion, tried a bit too hard to tie it into the existing franchise and make it a dual origin/continuation story which is never a good thing,

The only fauilt i can find in his Superman is that he didn't try to his own version but a mash of everything Superman (both comics and movies).

But i'm sure he would have made a great X3 if it was properly funded.. he can do great action if he has enough money.. X-Men didn't have it but they increased the budget for X2 and it was fantastic.. just imagine what he could have done with en even bigger budget.

 

[exodus]

Why should we assume if he returned to do X3 would do the Dark Phoenix Saga and not Phoenix Saga which was more Earth based? Why assume again that he would do a story that would detract from the main theme of X-Men which is human equality? Neither version of any Phoenix Saga envolves what the first two X-Men films set up as it's theme.

X2 ends with Jean giving a monolog about the next stage of evolution. Which means her Phoenix powers came from within her, not some cosmic energy. That alone changes the Phoenix story in of itself.

 

[grabmygoblin]

Dark Phoenix shouldn't have even been touched during the third movie. they should have had one with regular ol'good guy Phoenix first instead of trying to squeeze that much story into one flick.

 

[Praetor]

I agree. I bet there would have been less of a backlash.

 

[Anwar]

I dunno, I mean if the movie had been long enough (3 hours, maybe) they'd have been able to put the entire Dark Phoenix storyline in there.

What they could NOT have done was have Dark Phoenix happen at the same time they were doing what was essentially the "finale" of X-Men witht eh cure and the full-on Mutant War. THAT needed it's own movie.

 

[SpokOdo]

Originally the whole Phoenix thing was that Jean ended up getting bombarded with cosmic radiation that enhanced her powers, like how the Fantastic Four got their abilities. Then they retconned it later so that there was an alien that gave Jean more power and made her Phoenix. At least I think that's what happened, I have to re-read the story again.

That's how I remember it as well. The cosmic alien spin didn't come up until years later when they wanted to reunite the original X-Men and they needed to bring Jean back to complete the set. They needed a way to bring her back without having to carry the guilt for all the aliens Dark Phoenix killed.

Personally, I'm glad the Shi'ar never made it into the X-Men films. They would be out of place the the world the film series established. As for Claremont's original story... I guess it was great in its day. Reading it today, its good, but not spectaculer. Its one of those stories we keep calling an all time classic because we've been doing it for thirty years.

I'll give the original props for allowing Jean to become corrupted over time. In the original, Jean used her powers to fix the M'Kraan Crystal and save the galaxy. In X3, Jean takes out Scott as soon as she returns. She needed to be seen as a hero as Phoenix for a while in order for us to buy into the tragedy of Dark Phoenix.

 

[RoJoHen]

You know what might be cool in a totally fan-wanky kinda way? A movie duology of the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Sagas.

It would have to be made several years from now and exist in a completely separate continuity as the current round of X-Men movies (new actors all around), but I think it would be absolutely amazing if done right. They would have to embrace the bizarre scifi nature of the story, and they would have to make it as epic as possible.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I could not disagree more. I seem to be the only person on the Internet that still thinks "X2: X-Men United" is still the best superhero/comic book movie. And yes, I've seen "The Dark Knight", "Iron Man", and "Spider-Man II" - all the comic book/superhero movies since that everyone always ranks higher. While I liked all of them, in my mind nothing tops X2. It's one of the few movies I've been really excited about that I thought really delivered in spades.

I was furious at Singer for leaving the X-Men franchise for Superman and even more furious after I saw "X-Men: The Last Stand" and "Superman Returns". The second X-Men movie built on and improved upon "X-Men" in every way possible, and I'm sure his sequel would have done the same. I believe he had the chops to make the epic Phoenix story he alluded to at the end of "X2".

Instead, we got a mediocre third X-Men movie and a mediocre new Superman movie when we should have got a great X-Men movie to round out the trilogy with a bang and either no Superman movie, or a Superman movie crafted by someone else. As someone else once said on another forum I used to read, as perfect as Singer and his screenwriters were for "X2", that's how wrong they were for Superman.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

So unless a really good animation group or that mysterious visionary filmaker steps up to the challenge, I'm afraid the real DPS will remain in the comic pages.

The 90s X-Men animated series did a good Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga storylines. Phoenix Saga is on V2, and Dark Phoenix should be on V3 (when it comes out).

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, but seeing how moviegoers these days only like "Realistic" superhero movies like Dark Knight and stuff, they probably wouldn't like a story about superheroes fighting Space Empires and stuff.

Honestly, this call for "realistic" superhero movies kind of makes me mad. These people just can't open their minds to the idea that maybe not every superhero movie has to be a gritty crime drama to be good and maybe there is room for the uttelry fantastic like space aliens.

 

[RoJoHen]

I could not disagree more. I seem to be the only person on the Internet that still thinks "X2: X-Men United" is still the best superhero/comic book movie. And yes, I've seen "The Dark Knight", "Iron Man", and "Spider-Man II" - all the comic book/superhero movies since that everyone always ranks higher. While I liked all of them, in my mind nothing tops X2. It's one of the few movies I've been really excited about that I thought really delivered in spades.

I was furious at Singer for leaving the X-Men franchise for Superman and even more furious after I saw "X-Men: The Last Stand" and "Superman Returns". The second X-Men movie built on and improved upon "X-Men" in every way possible, and I'm sure his sequel would have done the same. I believe he had the chops to make the epic Phoenix story he alluded to at the end of "X2".

Instead, we got a mediocre third X-Men movie and a mediocre new Superman movie when we should have got a great X-Men movie to round out the trilogy with a bang and either no Superman movie, or a Superman movie crafted by someone else. As someone else once said on another forum I used to read, as perfect as Singer and his screenwriters were for "X2", that's how wrong they were for Superman.

I agree with you about X2. And I also agree that X3 completely ruined what X2 setup.

The Phoenix story is done, and that sucks.

If it were ever to be done again, I think that's all it should be. Not an X-Men series leading up to a crappy "Phoenix" story, but a movie whose sole purpose is to tell the Phoenix Saga on the big screen.

 

[Bri]

Originally the whole Phoenix thing was that Jean ended up getting bombarded with cosmic radiation that enhanced her powers, like how the Fantastic Four got their abilities. Then they retconned it later so that there was an alien that gave Jean more power and made her Phoenix. At least I think that's what happened, I have to re-read the story again.

You guys are right, my memory of this was from the Classic Xmen reprint of this, contained a backup story describing what I was talking about. By the time those reprints hit, they had already brought Jean back and said Phoenix was never Jean at all. lol I had to consult my virtual xmen #'s 100-101 to remember this correctly. When I first actually read this story, it was in the reprints, and Jean was long back by then.

My Bad.

Bri

 

[exodus]

I could not disagree more. I seem to be the only person on the Internet that still thinks "X2: X-Men United" is still the best superhero/comic book movie. And yes, I've seen "The Dark Knight", "Iron Man", and "Spider-Man II" - all the comic book/superhero movies since that everyone always ranks higher. While I liked all of them, in my mind nothing tops X2. It's one of the few movies I've been really excited about that I thought really delivered in spades.

I was furious at Singer for leaving the X-Men franchise for Superman and even more furious after I saw "X-Men: The Last Stand" and "Superman Returns". The second X-Men movie built on and improved upon "X-Men" in every way possible, and I'm sure his sequel would have done the same. I believe he had the chops to make the epic Phoenix story he alluded to at the end of "X2".

Instead, we got a mediocre third X-Men movie and a mediocre new Superman movie when we should have got a great X-Men movie to round out the trilogy with a bang and either no Superman movie, or a Superman movie crafted by someone else. As someone else once said on another forum I used to read, as perfect as Singer and his screenwriters were for "X2", that's how wrong they were for Superman.

Sweet mystery of life at last I've found you!!!!!!

 

[coolghoul]

^ This thread is very interesting to me so far.

I love reading comic-books but unlike most of the comic fans on this board, I only get to reading Trades that become available to me. Except for one book (Ultimate Spidey), I don't think I've read the entire run of any book.

I guess I haven't read The Phoenix Saga but I've seen the M'Kraan crystal story in the 90s X-men toon show. I have read the Dark Phoenix Saga tpb that is available.

I am presenting below the Amazon.com blurb on the storyline in the Dark Phoenix Saga TPB.

Believe the hype: the Dark Phoenix saga is one of the greatest comics stories ever. Conceived by writer Chris Claremont and penciller John Byrne (credited as co-plotters, and aided immeasurably by inker Terry Austin), the story begins in The Uncanny X-Men #129 when Professor X sends his team in search of two new mutants detected by Cerebro. The figures in question turn out to be Kitty Pride, who would eventually join the team as Sprite, and the flashy disco singer Dazzler, who would go on to star in her own book. Little do the X-Men know that they're walking into a trap set by the Hellfire Club, a group of supervillains that seem perfectly matched to counter our merry mutants. The insidious part of the plot, however, is how a mysterious man named Jason Wyngarde seems to have been Jean Grey's lover in another time, another era, and how that might give him control over her now. Jean Grey was, like Cyclops, an original member of the X-Men, and had the power of telepathy (a gentle power, like that of the Invisible Girl of the same era). When she was reborn as Phoenix in issue #108, however, she became power incarnate. Can it be controlled, or must the X-Men make a choice between the woman they love and the fate of the universe? It's all here in this nine-issue volume, plus Wolverine alone, Emma Frost, the return of original members Angel and Beast, and a showdown with Lilandra's Imperial Guard in one of comics' great milestone issues, X-Men #137. Read it, true believer--'nuff said. --David Horiuchi --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Reason for the above blurb is that I feel (and I may be wrong) that the Dark Phoenix Saga means different things to different people. That trade actually has a story with Dazzler and Hellfire Club and Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind) and Lilandra and how Jean experiences weird hallucinations of a "period"-based romantic story where she ends up being unfaithful to Scott by romancing Jason Wyngarde. etc. Surely - you don't want a film that shows Dazzler and Jason Wyngarde and all that??! I *think* (unsure) that what people say they want to see when they say "I want the DPS" is the whole Jean Grey becoming Phoenix, a reference to the Phoenix making a star go supernova just for the destructive joy in being manifested again, Jean Grey realizing that her being is infested with an entity that she cannot control and then the finale with the death of Jean Grey. Is that right for most of us?

And Anwar - I don't think the cosmic rays story can be done any longer in a believable manner in a movie. Today's audience would laugh at "The cosmic ray made her Phoenix" and too many fans who have read the Phoenix books would want to see the raptor. And any movie that said that 'twas the cosmic rays and not the Phoenix force, would also be rejected by a fair majority of even the comic book fans who have read about the Phoenix-force and accept it as part of MarvelU. Or is there a significant population of fans who say "The Phoenix-force never happened. Jean got super-duper-powers due to cosmic rays!"?



Btw, MeanJoePhaser - I died laughing at your post. Too Much Fun - Your avatar and sig reminded me of how I enjoyed Jadzia Dax and how Ezri was no fun at all...

 

[RoJoHen]

Believe the hype: the Dark Phoenix saga is one of the greatest comics stories ever. Conceived by writer Chris Claremont and penciller John Byrne (credited as co-plotters, and aided immeasurably by inker Terry Austin), the story begins in The Uncanny X-Men #129 when Professor X sends his team in search of two new mutants detected by Cerebro. The figures in question turn out to be Kitty Pride, who would eventually join the team as Sprite, and the flashy disco singer Dazzler, who would go on to star in her own book. Little do the X-Men know that they're walking into a trap set by the Hellfire Club, a group of supervillains that seem perfectly matched to counter our merry mutants. The insidious part of the plot, however, is how a mysterious man named Jason Wyngarde seems to have been Jean Grey's lover in another time, another era, and how that might give him control over her now. Jean Grey was, like Cyclops, an original member of the X-Men, and had the power of telepathy (a gentle power, like that of the Invisible Girl of the same era). When she was reborn as Phoenix in issue #108, however, she became power incarnate. Can it be controlled, or must the X-Men make a choice between the woman they love and the fate of the universe? It's all here in this nine-issue volume, plus Wolverine alone, Emma Frost, the return of original members Angel and Beast, and a showdown with Lilandra's Imperial Guard in one of comics' great milestone issues, X-Men #137. Read it, true believer--'nuff said. --David Horiuchi --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Reason for the above blurb is that I feel (and I may be wrong) that the Dark Phoenix Saga means different things to different people. That trade actually has a story with Dazzler and Hellfire Club and Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind) and Lilandra and how Jean experiences weird hallucinations of a "period"-based romantic story where she ends up being unfaithful to Scott by romancing Jason Wyngarde. etc. Surely - you don't want a film that shows Dazzler and Jason Wyngarde and all that??! I *think* (unsure) that what people say they want to see when they say "I want the DPS" is the whole Jean Grey becoming Phoenix, a reference to the Phoenix making a star go supernova just for the destructive joy in being manifested again, Jean Grey realizing that her being is infested with an entity that she cannot control and then the finale with the death of Jean Grey.

Is that right?

That is exactly what I want. More of a combination of the beginning of the Phoenix Saga and the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga...without all the silliness in between.

You described it perfectly.

 

[Praetor]

^Yeah, ditto that for me.

 

[Anwar]

And again, people these days don't like superhero movies to be really fantastic and "out there", they all want stuff low-key and "down to Earth" like Dark Knight. They're stifling the wonder of these characters and their universe.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

And again, people these days don't like superhero movies to be really fantastic and "out there", they all want stuff low-key and "down to Earth" like Dark Knight. They're stifling the wonder of these characters and their universe.

I wonder if that's why they never made F4 3...because the F4 films "embraced the cape" too much...

 

[davejames]

Instead, we got a mediocre third X-Men movie and a mediocre new Superman movie when we should have got a great X-Men movie to round out the trilogy with a bang and either no Superman movie, or a Superman movie crafted by someone else. As someone else once said on another forum I used to read, as perfect as Singer and his screenwriters were for "X2", that's how wrong they were for Superman.

I really liked SR...... but I have to agree I probably would have preferred a Singer X3 instead.

And I'm not even an X-Men or Marvel fan. I just really liked what Singer was doing with that world, and thought he was really getting into a good groove with the second movie.