If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latinum?

[Danoz]

Now there are some stipulations. You were born on a Federation protected planet with the same standards of redistribution that exist on Earth. Most of the people around you are almost completely ignorant to the tenets of capitalism and pursuit of material gain (as demonstrated in Star Trek lore-- particularly interactions between Jake Sisko and Nog). We do know that greed among humans is not completely unheard of (Vash, Hagath, etc).

Clearly, parts of the Federation seem to exist in an economic bubble with some humans taking to intergalactic commerce more than others (after all, all basic utility seems to be met and then some). At the same time, humans, when given limited resources are prone to trades and bargaining (Voyager's swapping of "replicator rations" and "holosuite hours"). Riker was known to gamble with real Latinum and was actually owed money by Quark.

So you are on Earth or a similar colony, you are free to pursue happiness to your heart's content-- whether you decide to be a bad writer or basketweaver-- the Federation will meet your needs. Would you still be interested in material gain, rare artifacts, and the pursuit of Latinum and wealth beyond the Federation?

 

[Admiral Shran]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

As long as I had access to a replicator and a holodeck, I would not care at all about latinum or material gain.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Am I a Ferengi?

 

[scotpens]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

So you are on Earth or a similar colony, you are free to pursue happiness to your heart's content-- whether you decide to be a bad writer or basketweaver-- the Federation will meet your needs.

I wouldn't expect or ask the Federation to meet my needs. I would expect to work at a useful job, and to be fairly rewarded for my efforts.

 

[Danoz]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

So you are on Earth or a similar colony, you are free to pursue happiness to your heart's content-- whether you decide to be a bad writer or basketweaver-- the Federation will meet your needs.

I wouldn't expect or ask the Federation to meet my needs. I would expect to work at a useful job, and to be fairly rewarded for my efforts.

And that's good. I think a lot of good people would have that attitude-- while others would probably be just fine on the free rider approach.

 

[RegFan]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

No. A replicator is enough.

 

[-Brett-]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Lugging around gigantic chunks of metal to use as currency?

I'd tell the Ferengi to catch up with my distant ancestors in the 21st century, then I'd think about doing things their way.

 

[Fist McStrongpunch]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

It's not the Ferengi's fault that nobody has any faith at all in the galactic economy. That's the only reason why people would still be using hard currency. Clearly, there are deep-rooted economic problems with all the major governments.

 

[Myasishchev]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

As long as I had access to a replicator and a holodeck, I would not care at all about latinum or material gain.

Yep.

Besides, I wouldn't trust any currency based on a precious metal. Specie-backed currency is for the birds. And lugging around physical specie is for complete retards.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Now there are some stipulations. You were born on a Federation protected planet with the same standards of redistribution that exist on Earth. Most of the people around you are almost completely ignorant to the tenets of capitalism and pursuit of material gain (as demonstrated in Star Trek lore-- particularly interactions between Jake Sisko and Nog). We do know that greed among humans is not completely unheard of (Vash, Hagath, etc).

Clearly, parts of the Federation seem to exist in an economic bubble with some humans taking to intergalactic commerce more than others (after all, all basic utility seems to be met and then some). At the same time, humans, when given limited resources are prone to trades and bargaining (Voyager's swapping of "replicator rations" and "holosuite hours"). Riker was known to gamble with real Latinum and was actually owed money by Quark.

So you are on Earth or a similar colony, you are free to pursue happiness to your heart's content-- whether you decide to be a bad writer or basketweaver-- the Federation will meet your needs. Would you still be interested in material gain, rare artifacts, and the pursuit of Latinum and wealth beyond the Federation?

Maybe I'm in the minority, but--absolutely!

Consider:

Ronald Reagan once recounted a true story told to him by a Young American For Freedom named Brad. It seems that Brad, a student at PennState, had an encounter with a beautiful young woman with leftist leanings. Brad was wearing a button advocating limited government.

The girl asked Brad ("with the cool breeze stirring her hair"), "Wouldn't you like a guarantee that you won't ever go hungry?"

Brad knew that if he admitted to this, she'd follow with, "So why not such a guarantee for shelter, medicine, and all the rest?" He paused...and then gave her the victory she was seeking. Or...so she thought.

He said, "Sure! I'd like to lay my hands on everything I can get."

"Ohhhh," she said, "But the State is the closest you could come to such a guarantee."

Brad described her as braced for a counter-attack involving the magic of the market mechanism. But he threw another curve:

"Sure!" he said, "I grant that. There's something more: I'd like a guarantee of shelter, and medical treatment--and even some recreation!"

She must've thought she had a convert. A little shocked, she spoke, "But that's what we support. Why are you wearing that button?" She meant, of course, that "Cut Down Big Government" button.

Brad wasn't finished. He said to her, "I would also like a yacht."

Somewhat defeated, she answered, "Well, if you're not going to be serious about it..."

"But I am!" Brad said, as earnestly as he could, "I would really and truly like a yacht! Also, a seaside villa!"

"Look," she said, sternly, "You know what I'm talking about: sharing. I'm not interested in you're greedy daydreams! I'm asking what everyone should have."

"Alright," Brad answered, "I understand! Let everyone have a yacht!"

"But--how?" she asked lucidly, with the first sign of a rational thought.

"Don't bother me with that," he said, "There'd be a way, I'm sure--just so everyone has a yacht. However...there is one more thing I would like...."

"What?" she asked.

"Two yachts."

Brad noted to the Gipper that she looked rather unpleasant at that point, and he feared for his safety. In short, she was owned.

Reagan gave the moral of this account like so: "Socialists [or Statists, or whatever] ignore the side of Man that is of the spirit. They can [in theory] provide shelter, fill your belly with bacon and beans, treat you when you're ill...all the things that are guaranteed to a prisoner...or a slave. They don't understand that we also dream. Yes...even of, some time, owning a yacht."

Also...even the girl knew that the state couldn't ensure that everyone has a yacht--even assuming that it could supply all the "needs" of the people. So...how would one obtain a yacht? For that matter, what would be the reason for a Federation citizen to make yachts for others?

Through trade...and therefore, money.

So...would I care about Latimum?

Dang right, I would.





(In case you'd like to hear the whole tale, here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gIxuOabGBE )

 

[Hoser]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

With a replicator, you could make your own yacht. With a holodeck, you could sail it wherever you wanted.

So no, wouldn't care.

 

[Agenda]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Yes you would want latinum. The Federation's socialist utopia (and I don't mean to diss it) will only get you so far. If you want extra wealth, extra things, latinum is the way - gold-pressed and otherwise.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

With a replicator, you could make your own yacht. With a holodeck, you could sail it wherever you wanted.

So no, wouldn't care.

Honestly? Have we ever seen replicators make anything larger than a plate of food or a thermos of raktajino?

There's a lot of talk about mining for certain elements--so I think we can assume that replicators can't make everything.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I would be emigrating out of the Federation for a number of reasons as soon as I had the means to do so so yes, as far as what I needed to put food on my table, keep a roof over my head, and keep me healthy, yes. Just for its own sake--not so much. But a chance to actually know that I'm earning my own keep? That would be worth everything. I could fail. But I would have the right to do so on my own.

 

[Myasishchev]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Now there are some stipulations. You were born on a Federation protected planet with the same standards of redistribution that exist on Earth. Most of the people around you are almost completely ignorant to the tenets of capitalism and pursuit of material gain (as demonstrated in Star Trek lore-- particularly interactions between Jake Sisko and Nog). We do know that greed among humans is not completely unheard of (Vash, Hagath, etc).

Clearly, parts of the Federation seem to exist in an economic bubble with some humans taking to intergalactic commerce more than others (after all, all basic utility seems to be met and then some). At the same time, humans, when given limited resources are prone to trades and bargaining (Voyager's swapping of "replicator rations" and "holosuite hours"). Riker was known to gamble with real Latinum and was actually owed money by Quark.

So you are on Earth or a similar colony, you are free to pursue happiness to your heart's content-- whether you decide to be a bad writer or basketweaver-- the Federation will meet your needs. Would you still be interested in material gain, rare artifacts, and the pursuit of Latinum and wealth beyond the Federation?

Maybe I'm in the minority, but--absolutely!

Consider:

Ronald Reagan once recounted a true story told to him by a Young American For Freedom named Brad. It seems that Brad, a student at PennState, had an encounter with a beautiful young woman with leftist leanings. Brad was wearing a button advocating limited government.

The girl asked Brad ("with the cool breeze stirring her hair"), "Wouldn't you like a guarantee that you won't ever go hungry?"

Brad knew that if he admitted to this, she'd follow with, "So why not such a guarantee for shelter, medicine, and all the rest?" He paused...and then gave her the victory she was seeking. Or...so she thought.

He said, "Sure! I'd like to lay my hands on everything I can get."

"Ohhhh," she said, "But the State is the closest you could come to such a guarantee."

Brad described her as braced for a counter-attack involving the magic of the market mechanism. But he threw another curve:

"Sure!" he said, "I grant that. There's something more: I'd like a guarantee of shelter, and medical treatment--and even some recreation!"

He's being sarcastic, but my guess is Brad had never read Capitalism and Freedom.

Perhaps the beautiful young woman should have couched her ideas in the language of ridding the market of the distortions of hunger, exposure, and sickness.

Honestly? Have we ever seen replicators make anything larger than a plate of food or a thermos of raktajino?

There's a lot of talk about mining for certain elements--so I think we can assume that replicators can't make everything.

I dunno. It's a good question, but what's the largest integral piece of a yacht? I figure if they can make proteins and polymers, they can make cellulose or fiberglass pieces. On the other hand, if the hull's a single piece, it probably can't be built in any replicator we've seen.

Anyway, I've always seen the point of human ingenuity to reduce the labor required to keep the species extant and enriched. As wealth and innovation increase, the need for labor is lessened (has anyone here ever been a serf?); it's rational to believe that at some point in the future that many kinds of human labor will be so worthless that it is best kept out of the market. This is, more or less, the picture of the Federation economy I get--where, other than intellectual pursuits that further innovation or the discovery of energy resources or trade opportunities, human labor is pretty much worth zero.

On the other hand, I'm not sure a fictional economy that has access to molecular fabrication technology and the billions of times our energy resources to run it with can even be taken as a valid critique of modern capitalism, so it makes me wonder why they thought it did.

 

[Deks]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

So the defence of some capitalist advocates is based in the premise that EVERYONE would simpy want more and more in terms of material wealth (or material wealth in the shape of something we perceive today as luxuries)?

That's sincerely the most delusional piece of garbage if I ever heard any.

People's wants and needs differ.
If a person wants 2 yachts for example, that doesn't mean everyone else would want them.
Same goes for a villa/mansion right next to the ocean.

I for example have 0 desire for a boat of any kind, or a mansion.
I don't like the sea that much, and I do not have a burning desire to live right next to the ocean.
I like the notion of living in a studio type apartment.

What is it with some people who presume that just because one person wants something in terms of luxuries that everyone else wants it as well?

Back on topic.
If I was living in the Federation, I would not really look towards latinum unless it becomes later on a resource needed for me to obtain items should I go out and explore the galaxy (then again, latinum is not the only means of exchange, and I would imagine one could mine/collect their own resources on their voyage).
I may not stay in the colony for a long amount of time and would likely want to work in exchange of getting a vessel of some sort, so I can leave and explore the galaxy.

Replicators would be enough to satisfy virtually all my needs during my stay in the colony, and I'd look into using the replicator to manufacture parts for a vessel of my own, then assemble it, or simply work in exchange for a small SF type vessel (such as a shuttle, runabout or a Delta Flyer type shuttle that can reach high Warp speeds).

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

So the defence of some capitalist advocates is based in the premise that EVERYONE would simpy want more and more in terms of material wealth (or material wealth in the shape of something we perceive today as luxuries)?

That's sincerely the most delusional piece of garbage if I ever heard any.

People's wants and needs differ.
If a person wants 2 yachts for example, that doesn't mean everyone else would want them.
Same goes for a villa/mansion right next to the ocean.

I for example have 0 desire for a boat of any kind, or a mansion.
I don't like the sea that much, and I do not have a burning desire to live right next to the ocean.
I like the notion of living in a studio type apartment.

What is it with some people who presume that just because one person wants something in terms of luxuries that everyone else wants it as well?

Sir...if that's what you think we said, I suggest you reread my initial post:

Reagan gave the moral of this account like so: "Socialists [or Statists, or whatever] ignore the side of Man that is of the spirit. They can [in theory] provide shelter, fill your belly with bacon and beans, treat you when you're ill...all the things that are guaranteed to a prisoner...or a slave. They don't understand that we also dream. Yes...even of, some time, owning a yacht."

The "yacht" thing was just a specific example of a more general point.

Back on topic.
If I was living in the Federation, I would not really look towards latinum unless it becomes later on a resource needed for me to obtain items should I go out and explore the galaxy (then again, latinum is not the only means of exchange, and I would imagine one could mine/collect their own resources on their voyage).
I may not stay in the colony for a long amount of time and would likely want to work in exchange of getting a vessel of some sort, so I can leave and explore the galaxy.

Replicators would be enough to satisfy virtually all my needs during my stay in the colony, and I'd look into using the replicator to manufacture parts for a vessel of my own, then assemble it, or simply work in exchange for a small SF type vessel (such as a shuttle, runabout or a Delta Flyer type shuttle that can reach high Warp speeds).

Like it or not, sir, there is no such thing as an unlimited resource--replicators or no replicators. Even replicators run on energy. And yes, there ARE elements that cannot be replicated--otherwise, "mining industries" are meaningless.

Also...would you have us believe that non-Federation powers simply have no replicator tech? Are the scientists "over there" truly that stupid--and does the UFP simply refuse to trade those machines?

Also...the UFP does engage in trade! What would be the point of trade if you can simply replicate whatever you want?

And that is what "social welfare" statists refuse to comprehend--that there is no such thing as an unlimited resource. (With the possible exception of air--but that isn't provided by the government or the market!)

 

[Sci]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

I would be unlikely to care about latinum.

I would be more likely to care about Federation Credits, since that's the Federation's actual unit of currency. (And, yes, the Federation does have currency, and does have at least some form of market economy, Picard's sanctimonious speeches notwithstanding.)

I am, however, quite confident that the state has sufficient resources to maintain a healthy standard of living for all people free of charge -- free housing, free education, free food, free medical care, and probably free access to the Federation News Service so that they'll be able to be educated voters come election time. I'm also sure that people who choose to live this way are probably only provided with dormitory-style housing in locations they may not always choose, which is why a market economy exists to give them greater freedom of choice if they choose to get a job and earn their way towards a more comfortable lifestyle.

The best of both words -- survival is guaranteed, but luxuries are not.

And that is what "social welfare" statists refuse to comprehend--that there is no such thing as an unlimited resource. (With the possible exception of air--but that isn't provided by the government or the market!)

Actually, even that isn't an unlimited resources, as a short trip to Los Angeles can verify. It requires oxygen-producing lifeforms to generate it, and, in the modern world, an interventionist government to prevent irresponsible corporations from poisoning it.

 

[ChadHydro]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Personally I would not. The reason for this is because my drive and my passion for what I do isn't really based on the acquisition of wealth and material things. Sure, I'm not perfect, I like seeing the dollar signs on my paycheck but if I lived in the Trek universe and had all of my basic needs met, frankly my dear I wouldn't give a damn.

 

[maneth]

Re: If you lived in the Star Trek universe, would you care about Latin

Personally I would not. The reason for this is because my drive and my passion for what I do isn't really based on the acquisition of wealth and material things. Sure, I'm not perfect, I like seeing the dollar signs on my paycheck but if I lived in the Trek universe and had all of my basic needs met, frankly my dear I wouldn't give a damn.

Yeah, me too. I work to live, I don't live to work. If I won a million bucks or so, enough money, with judicious management, to keep me in my present lifestyle if not slightly better for the rest of my life, I'd quit my job tomorrow. And it's a job I find challenging and enjoyable, not one I hate.