If you could rewrite Voyager

[Riker'sMailbox]

I am new to the show and only halfway through season 4 , at this point, but I can already think of things I would have done differently.
1) The differences between the Maquis and SF personnel were resolved way to quickly. Chakotay tells the Maquis they were working with SF and everyone fell in line. The first season should have been rife with conflict between the two groups.
2) No Kes and no Neelix.
3) I am in the minority, but I don't mind Harry, I just think Ops was the wrong place for him. He was friendly and well liked, so maybe morale officer, counselor would have been a better fit.
4) The Kazon were just stupid.
5) I liked Seska as a villian, but would've loved to have seen some kind of redemption story for her.
6) More Krenim. If you are talking about a year of hell with a compelling villian, give me more than 2 episodes and it was a cop out to have the whole Year of Hell get erased.
7) There should have been a lot of low moments for the crew. Not when they were in a conflict, but when they were just travelling through space. They are 75 years from home and it really did not seem to affect any of them.

I find Janeway to be a developed character and a good captain, so I wouldn't really write her much differently.

This list is subject to change as I watch more.

 

[HugeLobes]

Okay, I think the issue with VOY is that they came up with character gimmicks, but didn't really take the time to think about how those characters would work together and develop over the life of the show.

DS9 got this so right, so lets take a Niner example: Doctor Bashir. You probably know that DS9 was based around the idea of a western, with Odo as sheriff, Bajorans the natives, and so on.

So, who is Bashir? He's young, inexperienced, idealistic, and slightly naive. He's good at his job and (even without season 5's genetic engineering twist) probably the smartest main character and certainly the most intellectual. Because he's a doctor, he doesn't care much about command decisions and generally doesn't seem comfortable making them.

This all informs his relationship with every character. To Sisko, he's the idealistic voice. To Kira, he's someone she respects but finds somewhat bemusing. His friendship with Garak revolves around his intellectual side. His relationship with O'Brien revolves around his boyishness - that's why they're always doing holodeck programs. He's amused by Quark and is the only crew member, apart from Dax, to see him as more of a friend, probably because he isn't part of the rigid command hierarchy.

God, another really long post :/

Anyway, this kind of thinking seems absent from VOY. It's like they thought: "okay, how about like a Klingon as the engineer, but she's half-Klingon, that would be interesting. And the XO will be a native American, and how about a Vulcan as chief of security - people love Vulcans." They did all this without thinking about how those characters would function together and where the actual story would come from. It's like star trek madlibs. We'll have a (half-Klingon) as (head of engineering).

As nicely summed up by Bry_Sinclair character problems were "more a product of the writing not following any sort of coherent path or arc". Maybe sometimes "B'Elanna has issues with her ethnicity, and Paris has his past mistakes and criminal record", but only when those need to be parts of individual episodes. Otherwise, all the characters just feel kinda blank and interchangeable. Those flaws and character traits are only skin deep. Is a Vulcan security officer interesting, or a Maquis XO who happens to be a native american? Maybe, but only if those characters fit into a strong character dynamic, and that never really happens on VOY.

VOY always felt more like a sitcom to me than a drama, and I think this is why.

 

[Riker'sMailbox]

Okay, I think the issue with VOY is that they came up with character gimmicks, but didn't really take the time to think about how those characters would work together and develop over the life of the show.

DS9 got this so right, so lets take a Niner example: Doctor Bashir. You probably know that DS9 was based around the idea of a western, with Odo as sheriff, Bajorans the natives, and so on.

So, who is Bashir? He's young, inexperienced, idealistic, and slightly naive. He's good at his job and (even without season 5's genetic engineering twist) probably the smartest main character and certainly the most intellectual. Because he's a doctor, he doesn't care much about command decisions and generally doesn't seem comfortable making them.

This all informs his relationship with every character. To Sisko, he's the idealistic voice. To Kira, he's someone she respects but finds somewhat bemusing. His friendship with Garak revolves around his intellectual side. His relationship with O'Brien revolves around his boyishness - that's why they're always doing holodeck programs. He's amused by Quark and is the only crew member, apart from Dax, to see him as more of a friend, probably because he isn't part of the rigid command hierarchy.

God, another really long post :/

Anyway, this kind of thinking seems absent from VOY. It's like they thought: "okay, how about like a Klingon as the engineer, but she's half-Klingon, that would be interesting. And the XO will be a native American, and how about a Vulcan as chief of security - people love Vulcans." They did all this without thinking about how those characters would function together and where the actual story would come from. It's like star trek madlibs. We'll have a (half-Klingon) as (head of engineering).

As nicely summed up by Bry_Sinclair character problems were "more a product of the writing not following any sort of coherent path or arc". Maybe sometimes "B'Elanna has issues with her ethnicity, and Paris has his past mistakes and criminal record", but only when those need to be parts of individual episodes. Otherwise, all the characters just feel kinda blank and interchangeable. Those flaws and character traits are only skin deep. Is a Vulcan security officer interesting, or a Maquis XO who happens to be a native american? Maybe, but only if those characters fit into a strong character dynamic, and that never really happens on VOY.

VOY always felt more like a sitcom to me than a drama, and I think this is why.

I agree with all of this.

 

[Discofan]

Really?! I remind you that being willing to die so that honor and justice may live, is the heart of the commitment of every soldier, ranked (officers) or not, deserving wearing the uniform. It is in their DNA and Janeway's (Starfleet) crew knew it. That's surely why they never once questionned her decision to destroy the array, only mean to protect the Ocampa population.
The only ones who critized her decision was the Maquis soldiers minus Chakotay, who was himself a former Starfleet officer, understood the decision - minus Chakotay, who was himself a former Starfleet, understood the decision -.
I bet that Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer and their respective crews would also have acted.

Could you say the same about her alliance with the Borg? It was against every single principle she defended the rest of the series. She did everything against the book on that one and was later called on it by the guy who's entire people went extinct because of her.

 

[Qonundrum]

"Year of Hell" definitely needed to be more than two parts long and not with a reset button ending.

Indeed, VOY relies on reset buttons and cop-outs way too frequently and that's the one thing I would change -- along with arcs and follow-ups (not like magic reset button "Fury").

 

[HugeLobes]

"Year of Hell" definitely needed to be more than two parts long and not with a reset button ending.

Indeed, VOY relies on reset buttons and cop-outs way too frequently and that's the one thing I would change -- along with arcs and follow-ups (not like magic reset button "Fury").

One of the oddest things about VOY is that they took a concept that worked with extended arcs and then went with an episodic format.

Magic resets and a lack of overarching stories were fine with TNG because it was set up as an episodic show.
Long arcs and follow-ups were integral to DS9 because it was more character-focused and set around one key storyline.

For whatever reason, VOY decided to combine a more DS9-style concept with a a more TNG-style format. Again, I think this is why VOY felt more like a sitcom. It took what worked in other shows without thinking about why those things worked.

 

[tharpdevenport]

I remember reading "Year of Hell" was going to be a season-long arc, but somebody nixed the idea.

 

[Tenacity]

So, who is Bashir? He's young, inexperienced, idealistic, and slightly naive. He's good at his job and (even without season 5's genetic engineering twist) probably the smartest main character and certainly the most intellectual

Without the genetic treatment he received, Bashir was a below average intelligent guy. Prior to finding out about the treatment it was easy to be impressed by Bashir, he would have had to of worked hard to achieve what he did and get where he was. Secod best in your class is nothing to sneeze at. If Bashir accomplished all he did with his orginal intelligence THAT would have painted Bashir as an outstanding individual.

Then we find out that none of it was Bashir's doing, it was essentually a gift, the genetic treatments handed it all to Bashir on a silver platter.

Yeah, real impressive.

 

[HugeLobes]

Without the genetic treatment he received, Bashir was a below average intelligent guy. Prior to finding out about the treatment it was easy to be impressed by Bashir, he would have had to of worked hard to achieve what he did and get where he was. Secod best in your class is nothing to sneeze at. If Bashir accomplished all he did with his orginal intelligence THAT would have painted Bashir as an outstanding individual.

Then we find out that none of it was Bashir's doing, it was essentually a gift, the genetic treatments handed it all to Bashir on a silver platter.

Yeah, real impressive.

I meant more without that reveal than within the context of the show. To quote Memory Alpha:

"The idea of making Bashir genetically engineered was a last minute decision. As Ira Steven Behr explains, "at the time we were working on "In Purgatory's Shadow" and "By Inferno's Light", we had no idea that Bashir was going to turn out to be genetically engineered. So even though it was the very next episode..."

Him finishing 2nd in his class and so on was written before the genetically engineered thing.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Without the genetic treatment he received, Bashir was a below average intelligent guy. Prior to finding out about the treatment it was easy to be impressed by Bashir, he would have had to of worked hard to achieve what he did and get where he was. Secod best in your class is nothing to sneeze at. If Bashir accomplished all he did with his orginal intelligence THAT would have painted Bashir as an outstanding individual.

Then we find out that none of it was Bashir's doing, it was essentually a gift, the genetic treatments handed it all to Bashir on a silver platter.

Yeah, real impressive.

And wasn't that the true essence of Deep Space Nine when it was originally conceived; these characters were not the standard Starfleet mold. I'd rather Bashir as that person who had struggles and worked real hard to achieve his goals; whatever it may have been he actually earned it. These elements of DS9 in it's 1st 3 seasons were what I wanted with Star Trek Voyager.

How interesting would it had been if Tuvok suffered his disorder from the start of the pilot episode?

I think the Year of Hell for one full season would've been a terrible idea but based on the way the show was constructed and the needless situations Janeway got herself into trouble it could've been appropriate.

The audience don't require drawn out storylines which could be resolved in two episodes. I value the way the BBC construct their stories, tight and to the point. Something American TV can't seem to muster these days. TOS, TNG and DS9 (first 3 seasons) were great because the tale can be told in 50 minutes and I knew all about the characters and their situations without lazy writing to stretch a plot.

 

[HugeLobes]

I don't think Year of Hell is perfect, and that's not exactly what I'd want. It doesn't have to be that grueling, but there should be some difference between serving on Voyager during those years and serving on a ship under normal circumstances.

As for drawn out storylines, I'm not sure you're right when it comes to DS9. It's true that plenty of stories could be understood without context in the early years, but the characters were still evolving and the overarching story was still heating up. Duet, for example, could be fine on its own, but it works a lot better when you've know Kira's past and have seen her evolution across the first season.

Interestingly, VOY attempted to copy Duet in Jetrel. Another Memory Alpha quote: "The episode was a conscious attempt to recreate the chemistry and powerful dramatic effect of DS9: "Duet".

So instead of Kira at the center of the story, it's Neelix. Yup, the comic relief character everyone hates. Even if the writing was just as good (which it wasn't), Jetrel falls on its face because nothing about the story seems connected to Neelix in any way. It doesn't relate to any key themes or plotlines of the series, so it's pretty forgettable. Duet's 'powerful dramatic effect' came about because it was deeply related to Kira's extremely interesting character.

Again, the basic problem with VOY: Takes what works in other shows without wondering about why it works.

 

[catshadowsi8]

HughLobes- regarding character development I believe that a lot of what you are asking for was present at the beginning of the series. Janeway is portrayed as a first time captain of Voyager. She is more scientific than other Captains, often researching scientific situations on her own (Parallax). She struggles with her connection with the crew and the crew are do not feel comfortable interacting with her on a personal level (The Cloud). It's also very clear she believes following Starfleet rules are imperative, compromising them unacceptable (Parallax). There are many episodes where she quotes Starfleet regulations as her reason for her actions. She is a peacetime captain.

Chakotay is not scientific at all. He runs on experience and uses his crew to find solutions to scientific problems. As a result he understands his crews strengths and weaknesses because he has to rely on them for answers (Parallax). He is portrayed as charismatic with strong people skills as seen in Caretaker when they confront the old man on the lawn. Janeway stands over the caretaker, hands on her hips and orders the old man to tell her where her crew are. She expects to be obeyed. Chakotay sits down so he is on the same level and talks to the man. It's not until the end that she softens. Two very different styles. Chakotay is also a strong, experienced war time leader. He is depicted as older than Janeway with slightly graying hair. His crew respects him and follows his orders without question. They feel comfortable talking with him, but tow the line when he puts his foot down (Learning Curve). He is much less concerned with the rules and more with protecting his people. Maquis bend or break rules of necessary (Alliances).

The most telling difference is experience. In Ex Post Facto Chakotay uses a trick to win a battle with the Baneans. Janeway immediately says it's an old Starfleet trick. She knows it but does not think to use it in battle.

Tuvok is Vulcan so he is, unfortunately at times, set in stone. The race has been so defined over the years variation is almost impossible. He could act as Chakotay's foil but Chakotay is not Bones reincarnated so I'm not sure it would work.

Paris is written as the rebellious, out for a good time playboy (The Cloud for example). B'Elanna has massive anger issues which impact her interpersonal and professional relationships (Parallax and on). Kim is the innocent newbie, Kes the wide-eyed girl and becomes ship counselor and Nelix the expert on the various races (tell don't show because we only have an hour).

The characters are there and they are diverse. Unfortunately one huge problem stands in the way. Janeway is a woman , the first female captain. If her flaws are emphasized you give the nay sayers ammo to hit her with. As a result, like it or not, it was decided early on that she had to be the best at everything, never have a romantic relationship with the anyone on the ship (Mulgrew in particular was adamant about this) and always be in control. There is little room for the other characters to develop or conflict to play a large role in the story when these rules are in place. Tjmo
Sorry for the long post.

 

[Lynx]

I don't think Year of Hell is perfect, and that's not exactly what I'd want. It doesn't have to be that grueling, but there should be some difference between serving on Voyager during those years and serving on a ship under normal circumstances.

As for drawn out storylines, I'm not sure you're right when it comes to DS9. It's true that plenty of stories could be understood without context in the early years, but the characters were still evolving and the overarching story was still heating up. Duet, for example, could be fine on its own, but it works a lot better when you've know Kira's past and have seen her evolution across the first season.

Interestingly, VOY attempted to copy Duet in Jetrel. Another Memory Alpha quote: "The episode was a conscious attempt to recreate the chemistry and powerful dramatic effect of DS9: "Duet".

So instead of Kira at the center of the story, it's Neelix. Yup, the comic relief character everyone hates. Even if the writing was just as good (which it wasn't), Jetrel falls on its face because nothing about the story seems connected to Neelix in any way. It doesn't relate to any key themes or plotlines of the series, so it's pretty forgettable. Duet's 'powerful dramatic effect' came about because it was deeply related to Kira's extremely interesting character.

Again, the basic problem with VOY: Takes what works in other shows without wondering about why it works.

"Duet" was a great episode. One of my favorite DS9 episodes.

But "Jetrel" was definitely a masterpiece, one of Voyager's best.
And actually better than "Duet".

Why? Because the episode gives a new depth to the character Neelix.

His whole "comical" behavior was actually a result of a terrible trauma in which he lost his whole family. To cope with that horrible experience, he took on his duty to help, to cheer people up and to be as useful as possible for the Voyager crew.

OK, he was overdoing a lot of things which gave the opposite result of what he wanted and he screwed up his relationship with Kes. But that was also a result of the trauma which affected him deeply. He was a very complex person.

Neelix desperately tried to "fit in". Obviously he did know deep down inside that his skills were limited so he tried to compensate for that with a lot of ideas and whims, like his self-made role as "Morale Officer", how he became almost obsessed with the idea of being an "investigating journalist", the Talaxian resort he created at the holodeck (which Harry and Tom totally changed) and his bragging about his skills as guide while his knowledge about the Delta Quadrant was limited. That was also one of the reasons why he and Kes started to drift apart as soon as they came on board Voyager.

Kes found a purpose for her life on the ship. A new reality, new people, the Hydroponics Bay, her work in sickbay and an ardent will to learn and explore.

Neelix on the other hand found his skills rather limited and therefore did all he could to get attention, like "look at me, see what I can accomplish. His jealousy over Kes probably had something to do about being jealous of how good Kes did adapt to the new life and become an useful member of the crew while he did find himself limited. Not to mention that his control over Kes started to vanish as soon as they joined the Voyager crew.

I also think that he still had bad memories about what happened to his family so in an attempt to keep those feelings away he tried to be positive, cheerful and tried to cheer up everyone on the ship, like "I want happiness around me so smile!".

Not to mention that he actually has to confront the man who was responsible for the genocide on Rinax when Neelix's family was killed. The interaction between Neelix and Jetrel is excellent and during the episode we also learn that everything isn't black-and-white, that Jetrel wasn't a soulless monster but a scientist who found himself involved in something he created but something he couldn't control.

There's also a fascinating question at the end of the episode:

Did Neelix really forgive Jetrel or did he pretend to do that just to ease the pain of soul of the dying man?

For a long time I thought that Neelix just pretended but in recent years I've started to believe that he really did forget Jetrel, that he realized that Jetrel wasn't the monster he imagined but a man with a tortured soul and a lot of pain for what he had done.

The interaction between Kira and Marritza in "Duet" is brilliant and the episode is really great. But I think that "Jetrel" still had more drama and depth and explained the character Neelix better than "Duet" did with Kira.

 

[Tenacity]

HughLobes- regarding character development I believe that ...

More paragraph breaks, please.

 

[catshadowsi8]

Lynx- I agree with your wonderful assessment of Nelix. I believe he suffers from extremey low self esteem because of his past. This is why he is so jealous of Kes. He truly believes he is not good enough and she will realise that because she has better people to choose from now. It also plays heavily in Fair Trade. He makes huge mistakes because he feels he has become useless and will be abandoned.

 

[catshadowsi8]

More paragraph breaks, please.

Sorry. There are breaks but not spaces. I can see how it needs them.

Update- now that I have the edit feature I went back and fixed it.

 

[Discofan]

I would keep Kes and lose Kim.

 

[catshadowsi8]

I went back and reread this thread and I wonder if Voyager would benefit from being recreated today. In the 1990's Star Trek was tied up in the expectations of the time. Since then we have had the original Star Trek rebooted in the movies and Discovery doesn't suffer from the whole 'Janeway is the first Starfleet captain' issue. We are also more used to serialized dramas. I wonder if a harsher version would play better today than it would have back then. Keep the characters because imo they are diverse and have lots of potential, just darken the tone.

 

[ALF]

I went back and reread this thread and I wonder if Voyager would benefit from being recreated today. In the 1990's Star Trek was tied up in the expectations of the time. Since then we have had the original Star Trek rebooted in the movies and Discovery doesn't suffer from the whole 'Janeway is the first Starfleet captain' issue. We are also more used to serialized dramas. I wonder if a harsher version would play better today than it would have back then. Keep the characters because imo they are diverse and have lots of potential, just darken the tone.

Mmmmm... not so sure about that. I just watched Bride of Chaotica tonight and was thinking to myself how it was a episode perfectly written for Voyager and also appreciating all the 90's-ness of Voyager, much like DS9 and TNG. The 90s production charm / nostalgia of these shows are part of the fun. TOS = 60s, ENT = 00's etc.

The more I rewatch Voyager, the more I like it. I'm starting to feel a little bit like it's perfect within its own imperfections. Like anything else, really.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Lynx- I agree with your wonderful assessment of Nelix. I believe he suffers from extremey low self esteem because of his past. This is why he is so jealous of Kes. He truly believes he is not good enough and she will realise that because she has better people to choose from now. It also plays heavily in Fair Trade. He makes huge mistakes because he feels he has become useless and will be abandoned.

Probably coupled with a lot of survivor's guilt at being the only member of his family and most of his colony still alive.