If voyager was a Galaxy class star ship???

[exodus]

There, after eight pages of relatively dry discussion, a more interesting proposition finally shows up; since Intrepid Class is essentially Galaxy-lite with some upgrades the difference between the two is sort of hard to imagine as it relates to the journey Voyager took. I can't imagine one as opposed to the other really changing anything significant that happened.

Now, had Voyager been a Defiant class vessel- there's something that seems more likely to be a game changer.

-Withers-​

I don't want to get into a bashing VOY kind of thing but given how the show was written, I doubt the kind of ship would have made any difference in seven years. However, if we accept that VOY was written as well as DS9 in a parallel universe then I'm cool, lol.

Anyway, I think that the show would have been far more interesting with an older ship. A major tenant of drama is starting your characters out from a disadvantageous place and seeing how they get out of it. I mean lets really put them in a difficult place where replicators barely work, transporters are iffy and your lucky if the warp engines don't threaten to blow up in your face.

Ok that's cool but situations like that would still only last the few 2 or 3 years. It's like they show in stuff the Discovery Channel, the longer your in the "wilderness" the more you learn to adapt. If you haven't gotten it down by them, you're most likely doomed to die. So it's likely, Voyager would have ended up possably close to the same show we got.

 

[Saito S]

Too bad everything wee learned from watching TNG, "DEEP SPACE" Nine & Voy. contradicts most of this, if not all of it.

Seriously? That's it?

No. Nothing I said is in any way contradicted by any episode of TNG, "DEEP SPACE" Nine () or Voy. Everything in my post is either backed up by the shows, or is speculation/my opinion, in which case it is clearly labeled as such. Sorry.

And if that's REALLY all you're going to do... tell me you disagree and post a rebuttal to my points, then when I post a rebuttal to your rebuttal, just go "Oh yeah? Well... NO! So there!" then I really don't see any point in trying to hold a debate with you.

A Galaxy class would blow Voyager out of the water in terms of sensor ability.

This is untrue. To quote Memory Alpha: "The class boasted the best navigational sensors, and the highest top speed of any Starfleet vessel until the development of the Prometheus-class." Most of Voyager's systems were technologically superior to those of a Galaxy class, and this includes sensors. How they were portrayed on screen in terms of scanning range etc, is another matter entirely, since it never seems to be constant - for example, one day they can detect ships approaching from nearly a day away, sometimes only minutes away. And this is true in TNG as well as Voyager.

I have to agree with tvih here. I did see your reasoning, Xerxes, and it does make sense. However, as I myself made a point of earlier (in regards to why I reject the "Voyager was built for combat" line as evidence that it's primarily a combat-oriented ship), as strange as it sounds, on-screen lines of dialog are not always the best measure of what a ship "really" can or can't do. There are just far too many contradictions throughout Trek. This is partly why there are so many divergent opinions. In this case, I think it makes more sense to go with creator's intent, that the Intrepid class is supposed to have the most advanced overall sensor systems of any Starfleet design at the time it was launched, and to write-off the contradiction with your example comparing "The Wounded" and "Year of Hell" as writer goof-up.

As to your point about a Galaxy having a lot more surface area on which to mount external sensors... I think that's probably correct. The Intrepid would outdo the Galaxy on pure sensor power and range, but the Galaxy would likely outdo the Intrepid on how many different scans it could be running and processing simultaneously. This ties into one of my earlier points: a newer ship is not just blanketly better in every way than an older ship. When they designed the Intrepid, they went with a smaller spaceframe, knowing full well the advantages - and disadvantages - that would provide compared to other ships.

Also, as for the holodeck having a separate, incompatible power source compared to the rest of the system's power sources... I think the writers at least partially realized how silly that was, because for example in Fair Haven they draw power from the holodecks to the rest of the ship, and a few other such interactions with the main power grids are made as well. Of course, it could just be that they forgot it was supposed to be a separate system...

That's a good point. I haven't seen any eps involving Fair Haven in a LONG time (once was more than enough for me when it comes to that dreck, thank you), so I didn't remember this. But if they did indeed draw power from the holodecks as you say, then that pretty much throws the "incompatible power source" idea out the airlock, which leaves us with NO reason - not even a dumb reason - why this crew that was stuck in the DQ with limited resources and power reserves kept playing on the holodeck.

Saying the ship is "designed for combat" isn't saying it's the ships primary function.

It implies exactly that, actually. It's not the same as saying "This ship was designed primarily for combat"; that would be a direct, unambiguous statement. But "It was built for combat, not for..." (whatever it was that Tom was saying Voyager wasn't built for, I don't remember the exact line) does imply that it was designed "for combat", i.e. that Starfleet's intention was to design a class that would be among the top candidates to be sent on combat missions. Now, is there wiggle room for the idea that he didn't mean that it was PRIMARILY designed for combat, just that it was very combat-capable? Sure. But it's a pretty small amount of wiggle room, and really, if they didn't want to imply that it's primarily a combat ship, they shouldn't have worded the line that way.

It is saying however, that if the ship ends up in a hostile situation that it's also designed to take care of itself. Bringing up "It's designed for combat" was to address a specific question being asked about Voyager. Nobody said Voyager was a combat ship at it's core, not one.

Uh...

Then why did you argue with me!? What you are saying now is EXACTLY what I said when I first brought up Tom's "built for combat" line: that it IS combat-capable, and would even be considered above average for its size and purpose, but that its purpose was NOT primarily combat. That's all I ever said. So if that's what you think, why did you come back with "Sorry, I disagree" and a post about why you think I'm wrong??

I don't want to get into a bashing VOY kind of thing but given how the show was written, I doubt the kind of ship would have made any difference in seven years. However, if we accept that VOY was written as well as DS9 in a parallel universe then I'm cool, lol.

Hmm... well, this gets into an interesting question, about what things would have changed, and in what ways, not just in-universe but OUT of universe. Voyager, as it was, had plenty of problematic writing. But a Defiant-class ship would have, for example, no holodecks. And I don't think even the Voyager writers would be ridiculous enough to then have them build one, or something, because the crew is bored. So that cuts out Paris' bar from the early seasons, Fair Haven, and the entire ridiculous concept of the holodeck power source being incompatible with the rest of the ship. So there are at least SOME improvements that would seem to be "automatic". But overall, no matter the ship class, I would think a major shake up in terms of who was writing the show - and who was in charge of the show - would be necessary to get a show that was different in some significant way than what we got.

Anyway, I think that the show would have been far more interesting with an older ship. A major tenant of drama is starting your characters out from a disadvantageous place and seeing how they get out of it. I mean lets really put them in a difficult place where replicators barely work, transporters are iffy and your lucky if the warp engines don't threaten to blow up in your face.

Hm... possibly. I dunno, tho... I don't think the new-ness of Voyager was really a problem, per se. They may start off on better footing, but they could still end up in dire straits easily, depending on what they face (and really, should have been shown in something approaching dire straits in terms of the state of the ship far more often than they were). Look at "Year of Hell". (Before anyone says anything: NO, I am not saying that I wanted the ship to be trashed THAT BADLY all the time, just that I wanted it to not look pristine almost all the time either. I was just using YoH as an example of the fact that - new ship or not - you face tough enough times, things are gonna get ugly).

On the other hand, having the older ship may have been the only way to force their hand in terms of depicting those things, so maybe it would have been a good idea.

 

[Withers]

I don't know that the technical ramifications were as big as the fact that, when Voyager showed up in the Delta Quadrant (at the end of Caretaker), they were in the best possible situation to face the journey ahead. What more could one really ask for than what they had?

The most advanced ship in the fleet with a power system that was designed to last longer, advanced systems for research and data collection, a crew that while not necessarily properly trained was more than apt for the running of the ship, a guide who knew (or at least claimed to know) about the sector of space they were in, and all the other trappings that were present and necessary like the EMH, the shuttles, torpedoes and weapon systems, holodecks, and a fancy warp drive.

Even though they tried to play it off like what happened was completely random it seemed more like Voyager was prepared to be lost for 70 years in the Delta Quadrant. An older ship might have helped if they established from the onset that it had significant limitations by comparison to a Galaxy or Excelsior class ship but I don't think that's what they were gunning for since they wanted to give fans something to enjoy looking at and an old Miranda probably wasn't going to cut it.

-Withers-​

 

[PorthosShadow]

There, after eight pages of relatively dry discussion, a more interesting proposition finally shows up; since Intrepid Class is essentially Galaxy-lite with some upgrades the difference between the two is sort of hard to imagine as it relates to the journey Voyager took. I can't imagine one as opposed to the other really changing anything significant that happened.

Now, had Voyager been a Defiant class vessel- there's something that seems more likely to be a game changer.

-Withers-​

I don't want to get into a bashing VOY kind of thing but given how the show was written, I doubt the kind of ship would have made any difference in seven years. However, if we accept that VOY was written as well as DS9 in a parallel universe then I'm cool, lol.

Anyway, I think that the show would have been far more interesting with an older ship. A major tenant of drama is starting your characters out from a disadvantageous place and seeing how they get out of it. I mean lets really put them in a difficult place where replicators barely work, transporters are iffy and your lucky if the warp engines don't threaten to blow up in your face.

Ok that's cool but situations like that would still only last the few 2 or 3 years. It's like they show in stuff the Discovery Channel, the longer your in the "wilderness" the more you learn to adapt. If you haven't gotten it down by them, you're most likely doomed to die. So it's likely, Voyager would have ended up possably close to the same show we got.

Your right in that situations change over a period of time so in the beginning of an alternate Voyager series the crew would have to adapt to a difficult situation but then you throw them another curve ball and another one, etc... good drama is about putting your characters in peril weather it be physical or emotional.

In seven years they would always have some kind of obstacal to overcome which is good for the story and good for the audience that gets to watch is play out over said seven years. Using a DS9 example, the first encounter with The Jem'Hadar was disastorous but after that our heros adapated to the problem and gave what seemed like an enemy with overwhelming force a run for their credits, money or latinum.

 

[Solarbaby]

Guinin said the The Enterprise was a "Ship of Peace".

But then Yar said then her warship was capable of transporting 6000 troops, in exactly the same space Picard's ship of peace could habitate 1000 crew and families, and they were bother externally seemingly the same design.

Proving that Voyager isn't the only Trek containing inconsistancies & idea changes.

The TNG Tech Manual states that the ship can transport 5000 passengers in emergency situations. Thats on top of the crew complement

 

[Xerxes1979]

Guinin said the The Enterprise was a "Ship of Peace".

But then Yar said then her warship was capable of transporting 6000 troops, in exactly the same space Picard's ship of peace could habitate 1000 crew and families, and they were bother externally seemingly the same design.

Proving that Voyager isn't the only Trek containing inconsistancies & idea changes.

The TNG Tech Manual states that the ship can transport 5000 passengers in emergency situations. Thats on top of the crew complement

Actually the manual implies 15,000 for the maximum evacuation limit while a 6,500 number is given on pg. 152 as normal if you modify certain crew quarter layouts.

 

[M-Red]

Here's a couple of ship charts to look at, which seem to be pretty accurate and consistent:









At least for me, it's easy to forget just how much bigger a Galaxy is than an Intrepid. It's not just bigger, but several times larger in size and volume -- even though it seems like I think about (and it gets talked about) like it's just a little bit bigger. It would take several Voyager ships just to equal the Ent-D.


If most other considerations were equal, and I had to be on a 7-decade trip.....I'd just want as much room as possible to live a comfortable life. Larger rooms, wider hallways, taller ceilings, more spacious recreational/social areas, etc. may seem trivial but these things are important for quality of life. They would make a big difference over time if you're the one who has to experience it on an everyday basis.


And, for the most part, I don't think there would be a population/consumption problem on a Galaxy. There's a large number of people onboard but they could easily work out future living space problems by modifying certain quarters/decks. Just so many more onboard reasources to work with for the crew and the captain. of course...just my .02.

 

[tvih]

Saying the ship is "designed for combat" isn't saying it's the ships primary function. It is saying however, that if the ship ends up in a hostile situation that it's also designed to take care of itself. Bringing up "It's designed for combat" was to address a specific question being asked about Voyager. Nobody said Voyager was a combat ship at it's core, not one.

Yet you quoted that as if to prove Voyager indeed was a combat ship (and a combat ship's primary function is, surprisingly, combat), in reply to my statement about Defiant being a pure combat ship while Voyager was not. So why even make the statement to "argue" with me? I mean, anyone with at least one brain cell knows Voyager was designed to be capable of handling a combat situation. I can punch someone in the face too, but that doesn't make me a boxer. So why even bring it up :P

 

[Solarbaby]

Here's a couple of ship charts to look at, which seem to be pretty accurate and consistent:









At least for me, it's easy to forget just how much bigger a Galaxy is than an Intrepid. It's not just bigger, but several times larger in size and volume -- even though it seems like I think about (and it gets talked about) like it's just a little bit bigger. It would take several Voyager ships just to equal the Ent-D.


If most other considerations were equal, and I had to be on a 7-decade trip.....I'd just want as much room as possible to live a comfortable life. Larger rooms, wider hallways, taller ceilings, more spacious recreational/social areas, etc. may seem trivial but these things are important for quality of life. They would make a big difference over time if you're the one who has to experience it on an everyday basis.


And, for the most part, I don't think there would be a population/consumption problem on a Galaxy. There's a large number of people onboard but they could easily work out future living space problems by modifying certain quarters/decks. Just so many more onboard reasources to work with for the crew and the captain. of course...just my .02.

I had no idea how much bigger the Galaxy class was compared to the Intrepid. Thanks for posting the chart. Just to imtimdate other hostile species I'd want to be lost in the Galaxy class

 

[Deks]

Internal space as far as personal quarters and various rooms go seemed to be larger on the Intrepid as far as on-screen presentation is concerned.

Intrepid class: large rooms and much smaller crew count
Galaxy class: smaller rooms and larger crew count

 

[exodus]

Internal space as far as personal quarters and various rooms go seemed to be larger on the Intrepid as far as on-screen presentation is concerned.

Intrepid class: large rooms and much smaller crew count
Galaxy class: smaller rooms and larger crew count

That's why there was the running joke on Voyager was how the bridge was bigger in person than every body expects. It's mentioned a few time thru out the series.

 

[Deks]

I know.
And someone mentioned that they would prefer the Galaxy class because it supposedly has larger crew quarters?
Sigh ...
If anything, Voyager was even more so luxurious in how individual quarters looked.

Several dignitaries that arrived on the Enterprise-D were actually amazed at the quality of their rooms and saw it as luxury.

I'm sure the Intrepid would be equally, if not more-so impressive for ferrying some dignitaries and whoever else.

Comfort would be far from being an issue on an Intrepid for a crew of 150.

 

[exodus]

I know.
And someone mentioned that they would prefer the Galaxy class because it supposedly has larger crew quarters?
Sigh ...
If anything, Voyager was even more so luxurious in how individual quarters looked.

Several dignitaries that arrived on the Enterprise-D were actually amazed at the quality of their rooms and saw it as luxury.

I'm sure the Intrepid would be equally, if not more-so impressive for ferrying some dignitaries and whoever else.

Comfort would be far from being an issue on an Intrepid for a crew of 150.

True, the quarters on Voyager were rather large for a ship it's size but considering it was out to be out to "sea" for long periods, it might as well be a home away from home.

 

[M-Red]

Well, it's always seemed to me that the Ent-D was more open and spacious. I guess it depends on your taste, or view of what constitutes "luxurious." Most of all, the E-D always seemed more comfortable and welcoming to me.


Now don't get me wrong...I actually love the Intrepid class.....its one of the best things about VOY as a series imo.


But for the purposes of this question....

well, I agree with Memory Alpha.

With the presence of families and non-Starfleet personnel aboard, the Galaxy-class interior was mostly designed for their comfort and the well being of the crew in general. While the major command sections maintained form and functionality above all, there remained a much more "relaxed" feel about the design of many of these areas.

That's what I've always thought too. M-A doesn't have a similar entry for the Intrepid....but imo the interior of Voyager always seemed a little....cold. A lot more stainless steel and streamlined edging. Lower ceilings and tighter rooms. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how it's always seemed to me.


I dunno, the E-D just usually seemed to exude a more tranquil atmosphere for me. That's not a knock against the Intrepid, just a personal taste I guess. But on a seven-decade trip...that would be important to me.

 

[Deks]

If anything, both ships apparently had equally large corridors and heights of decks.
Thing is, when Voyager came along, the lighting changed and various other factors that probably created optical illusions.

I never really got a feeling of 'tranquil atmosphere' from the Galaxy class.
Perhpas it's because of the soothing songs they played in initial seasons that instilled 'futuristic wonders' type of sensations during some scenes.

By the time Voyager rolled out, we already saw most, if not all of those, so there was nothing to be amazed about.
Besides, Voyager was in a different situation.

 

[Saquist]

Internal space as far as personal quarters and various rooms go seemed to be larger on the Intrepid as far as on-screen presentation is concerned.

Intrepid class: large rooms and much smaller crew count
Galaxy class: smaller rooms and larger crew count

Galaxy is 9 times the internal volume of the Intrepid.
However the Galaxy is an abnormally big ship with only six times the standard crew of the Intrepid.

 

[Deks]

I'm aware of the differences in internal volumes when the Galaxy class is compared to the Intrepid.
However, on-screen representation gives us an impression that crew quarters for example are larger on the Intrepid.

It's a similar thing with the bridge and captains ready room.

Which might be placed into perspective through following reasoning:
The Intrepid class is a new ship ... automation has taken over plenty of systems by 2371, so SF decided to slightly increase the size of personal quarters and similar rooms on that particular class, resulting in the ability to cater to a smaller crew as a luxury liner.
If the Ent-D was described as a luxurious hotel ... then the Intrepid is essentially also a luxurious hotel ... albeit with a smaller capacity.

 

[Saquist]

I thinks it's just less redundancy in the Intrepid.
Remember Yesterdays Enterprise when they loss power to the phasers and had Wesley reroute. The TNG manual said many of the Enterprise's systems were triple redundant.

That's the benefit of a big ship. It's big enough for those redundancies to take licks and damage and keep going where Voyager shots are more deleterious . But at the same time Voyager exchanges size and redundancy for speed to avoid getting hit. Which Galaxy can't do .

Perhaps the gel packs all for high redunancy at less space. But that's speculation

 

[Deks]

Not really sure about that.
If anything, I would expect ALL SF ships to have same % of redundancy.

 

[Saquist]

I am not discounting that but look at the coverage of those arrays, sensor and phasers, the galaxy's cover much more area physically than Intrepid.

In Intrepid Redundancy couLd still be by 3 but you have less to make redundant