"Doctor Bashir, I presume", "Message in a Bottle" & "First Contact" states and shows going forward an EMH is standard on every Starship.
If voyager was a Galaxy class star ship???
- Thread starter GalaxyClass1701
- Start date
"Doctor Bashir, I presume", "Message in a Bottle" & "First Contact" states and shows going forward an EMH is standard on every Starship.
I thought we were talking about the ships as they stand, not as they could or will be?
I also thought we were talking about the pros & cons of a Intripid class vs. a Defiant class surviving the journey thru. the Delta Quaderant?
Withers
Captain
Reconcile those two things and get back to me.
If the same exact events transpired on a Defiant class Voyager... yeah, the lack of an EMH would probably be an issue... but then the odds of that same event having the same effect aren't as great (i.e. the odds of the entire medical staff being wiped out.)
-Withers-
Deks said:
Actually Deks is right that the Defiant came with a sickbay. It was just very small and poorly equipped in Bashir's opinion.
BASHIR: I need to go down to what is laughingly called Sickbay...
One is present tense & the other is future tense.
C.E. Evans : Could have sworn there was a mention of no sickbay before than but If you say so, I'll conceed that point.
A Galaxy class would blow Voyager out of the water in terms of sensor ability.
In "The Wounded" the Enterprise can scan 10 light years or 1 sector a day with long range sensors.
In "Year of Hell" scanning of temporal changes 20 ly distant is shown but that is with Seven's improved astrometric sensors which Kim claimed were 10 times better than what they were using previous.
Starfleet sensors are modular it is unreasonable to assume they would design from scratch new modules for each new ship class. The Enterprise-D had a lot more surface area and had some 144 such pallets for its lateral sensors alone.
In "The Wounded" the Enterprise can scan 10 light years or 1 sector a day with long range sensors.
In "Year of Hell" scanning of temporal changes 20 ly distant is shown but that is with Seven's improved astrometric sensors which Kim claimed were 10 times better than what they were using previous.
Starfleet sensors are modular it is unreasonable to assume they would design from scratch new modules for each new ship class. The Enterprise-D had a lot more surface area and had some 144 such pallets for its lateral sensors alone.
Who says? Unless I'm forgetting something, nothing in any dialog established the TCD's as being some kind of ship or class exclusive armament.
Huh... I didn't even realize that. It's been a LONG time since I saw "A Taste of Armageddon", tho, and the last time I saw it was definitely before Voyager even went on the air, so it's no surprise I didn't notice. Kinda neat, and makes the tricobalt device scene in "Caretaker" feel a little less "We're going to use the who what devices, now...?"
I agree. In fact, I don't accept that 38 would even be close to the max torp capacity for the Intrepid. I don't think 38 would even be in the ballpark, and might just barely be in the same county in which the ballpark resides.
Eh... I've always found the "it was only supposed to be a two-week mission just to find some Maquis ship" excuse to be really weak, personally. Yes, that would be a decent enough justification to not have all of their resources (including torps) stocked to the absolute MAX. But, as I said above, I don't think 38 torps is anywhere near the max. To only stock them to that degree doesn't make any sense, unless it was an emergency, "time is of the essence" mission (which it clearly wasn't). Had that been the case, one could assume that the ship left in such a hurry that they just stocked it to bare minimums, but it wasn't the case, so that doesn't work. And I don't swallow Starfleet being that shortsighted: at the time that Voyager was sent on their mission to find Chakotay, Starfleet has already experienced countless incidents involving a starship just tooling along on their merry way, when suddenly they get pulled into a wormhole/tossed back in time/stuck in some spatial anomaly/what have you. Given a priority mission but not an urgent, time-critical mission, they would want to make sure the ship was a little bit better prepared to encounter the unknown than that. Encountering the unknown being, of course, Starfleet's bread-and-butter.
While this may be true, it doesn't amount to much, since the show itself abandoned that. If only having 38 torps was an intentional decision on the part of the writers to make things more difficult for the ship, they shouldn't have then showed them using torps willy-nilly without any mention of how or when they are restocked. If they were concerned with showing the crew having a difficult time of things, they shouldn't have been playing in the holodeck so much.
Quite frankly, I've always thought the number given for the Ent-D itself (200, in "Conundrum"... can't remember if it was stated elsewhere. Of course, Worf said that, and also got the number of phaser arrays wrong, so...
) was too small, also. Given that we have seen - on many occasions - exactly how big a torpedo is, the Galaxy should easily be able to hold several times that, at least. As to the part I bolded:
Meh, I think he was just wording things in a bit of an overdramatic way. There is no reason to think it's particularly deficient tactically for a ship of its size and purpose, and it's a pretty new class at the time Voyager is launched (and therefore has advanced systems across the board). But in terms of how it was designed, I do see it with a science-vessel lean. Now, Starfleet isn't dumb; they're not going to intentionally make a ship less proficient in combat simply because it's intended to fill a largely science-oriented role, unless they felt they absolutely had to in order to make "room" in the design for some scientific system that they felt was critical. Well... ok; putting aside the Oberth-class, Starfleet isn't dumb. And the Intrepid also seems to benefit from above average maneuverability. So I think it is certainly a capable ship, tactically. But I don't see it as a Defiant or an Akira, in terms of what it was designed to do. It would (and did) hold its own in combat against most expected threats, but it is not a heavy hitter, as Starfleet ships go, and was not, strictly speaking, "built for combat."
And no, just because Tom Paris "said it on-screen" doesn't mean it's infallible canon to be taken at face value. Tom Paris also said that a starship needs to maintain a linear trajectory while at warp, which is completely absurd. There are plenty of examples (not just in Voyager, certainly) of things being said that are completely contradicted elsewhere, which sometimes makes it hard to arrive at any kind of logical, hard, "fact" based conclusion.
That doesn't work at all. There is no reason why taking power intended for holodecks and using them for, say, impulse engines (or whatever) would in ANY WAY affect the Doc's available power. That just doesn't make any sense, that the Doc's power source and the holodecks' power source would be somehow intinsically linked so that you couldn't mess with one without messing with the other. Power distribution doesn't work that way. A holodeck is a room with specific functionality. You shut down power to that room, nothing is going to happen to the holo-generators in sickbay.
I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that what exodus is going for here is "What if the Defiant - exactly as we saw it on DS9 - had been stranded in the DQ instead of Voyager?" Thus, no EMH. If it were a Defiant-class ship built later, it very well may have an EMH.
Regardless, Withers, your point about the EMH not being any more or less significant than a theoretical ECH or EEH or what have you does make sense. I think the rationale behind it (and I can see the logic here, actually), is that even if you have a hologram repairing the warp drive if there are no living engineers left, or a hologram keeping the bridge together if there are no living command officers left, if you don't have a holographic doctor and there are no living medical officers left, people are going to start dying, NOW, and then the repairs to the warp drive or giving orders on the bridge might not even matter.
You may be thinking of that sequence in "Behind the Lines" when they are taking stock of their captured Jem'Hadar ship.C.E. Evans : Could have sworn there was a mention of no sickbay before than but If you say so, I'll conceed that point.
Dax: No viewscreen. Who builds a bridge without a window?
Bashir: The same people who build a ship without a medical bay.
Well... the Defiant would tear the Kazon up something fierce, that's for sure.
Overall, I would think they would do better in combat, but they would have to be a lot more careful about resource use, since they have less to begin with and cannot store away as much. I think they would need to take things much more slowly, and ensure at every step that they had some kind of ally or friendly system they could scamper to for resupply. They would also be forced to pretty much abandon the whole "We're heading for home, but we're still exploring, too" idea.The newer ones at least.
Withers
Captain
Well, so far,...
Pros:
We get rid of Neelix.
Voyager is forced to have allies.
Voyager is forced to consider resources more carefully.
The Kazon get their asses kicked.
No more plots about how Kathy is a scientist underneath it all.
Cons:
No more plots about how Kathy is a scientist underneath it all.
No EMH/No "The Doctor"/Tom Paris is now the funniest man on the ship : |
Pros:
We get rid of Neelix.
Voyager is forced to have allies.
Voyager is forced to consider resources more carefully.
The Kazon get their asses kicked.
No more plots about how Kathy is a scientist underneath it all.
Cons:
No more plots about how Kathy is a scientist underneath it all.
No EMH/No "The Doctor"/Tom Paris is now the funniest man on the ship : |
-Withers-
Sorry but I've got to disagree with both of these.
Voyager's function was started in many eps. thought out the series. You don't send a ship into deep space were it would be alone without the support of other ships if the ship isn't designed to to defend itself. After WOLf359, Starfleet knew better. Further proof is on DS9 when they sent a Intripid class ship into the Beta Quad. to Romulus, knowing how fickle the Romulans can be. You'd need a ship that could fight & run. Tom's statement about combat has yet to be contradicted but rather supported by what we've seen. Tom said warp "No left or right: was taught at the Academy but Geordi told us things told in theory are often different in the field, so technically both are correct.
As far as the holodeck, didn't Be'Lanna tap into the holodeck power to project Talaxian ships around Voyager and it affected the Doc's program? From then on, they never tapped into the holodecks power again for fear of possibly what would happen to his program.
Last edited:
If you were going for "stated" there, then... I do not remember a single instance outside of that Tom line where anyone even hinted at Voyager being a combat-oriented ship. Note, not a combat-CAPABLE ship. It clearly was that. Two different things. Now, if you want to give me quotes from the show stating that Voyager was a warship by design, I'll stand corrected on that point (and maintain my opinion that it doesn't seem like a warship to me, regardless of what they say). But I do not recall such a thing ever being stated outside of that one scene.
Uh... they didn't. They sent them to the Badlands; hardly "deep space". And I never said the ship wasn't designed to defend itself. In fact, I said the opposite to avoid this very tangent: it is CLEARLY a very combat capable ship for its size and purpose. What I'm arguing is that it wasn't "designed for combat." I.e., the Defiant-class was designed for combat, and pretty much nothing else. The Akira-class (as far as the fandom/novelverse goes, anyway) was designed for combat primarily, but was still intended to be used as a multi-role ship. The Galaxy-class was designed as multi-role all around, with no particular strengths but no particular weaknesses either. The Intrepid-class seems to have been designed as multi-role to some degree, but with a focus on deep-space exploration and speed, with sufficient tactical capabilities to match that role. Hence, not "designed for combat", but still very combat-capable. And certainly severely overmatched against either a Maquis raider or a Galor-class cruiser.
While we're on the subject: so they wouldn't send a ship to the Badlands for this kind of mission unless it was a very combat-capable ship, yet they WOULD send this ship on the same mission with only 38 torps?
First off, in this particular scenario, it was HIGHLY unlikely that the Romulans would suddenly turn and attack the Bellerophon, or make any aggressive moves of any kind toward it. This isn't early TNG, this is the Dominion war. Just because they're Romulans doesn't mean they are stupid. By the time of that ep, they are FIRMLY entrenched in the war effort. Each one of the three major powers - UFP, RSE, KE - knows that the loss of even ONE of the three could secure a Dominion victory. The Romulans wouldn't risk that.
Putting that aside... no, you do not need a ship that can "fight & run." Just run. Did you see how many Romulan warbirds were hanging around in the establishing shot of the Bellerophon halfway through the ep? A warship would be useless; you're not going to fight off the entire Romulan home defense fleet if things turn sour. What you want is a ship that can defend itself well enough to keep them off balance long enough to use your speed and maneuverability to get away. The Intrepid is such a ship, but that doesn't mean it would have the level of pure combat power of a Defiant or Akira, or that it was designed with combat missions in mind.
I would say it was neither supported nor contradicted in any explicit way. The only thing that was made absolutely clear was that it was a tactically sound vessel, able to defend itself and powerful for its size, partly due to the advanced nature of its systems.
That STILL doesn't make it a warship by design.
Theory can differ from practice, yes. But this is not so simple: they made a big deal out of it in "Fury", the ep in which Tom makes the comment (and Janeway agrees). They say that course corrections at warp could fracture the hull.
If it were "just" a theory, they wouldn't tell pilots they must adhere to it at the Academy. And even if a theory is just a theory, it has to be based on something. If it had been proven to not be the case, it would go away (especially with how long warp drive - and specifically, Starfleet vessels using warp drive - have been around). They even went as far as to base their actions during the ep on this premise: they ended up making all these silly little warp jumps to avoid making course corrections at warp. That's more than a theory, that's practice. And that is stupid, after the number of times we've seen or heard about a ship casually changing course at warp like it was no big deal in previous Trek shows.
She didn't "use the holodeck." They reconfigured something (I assume sensors... it's been a while since I saw the ep, but obviously something external) to project holograms out into space. During this procedure, which was highly experimental and totally unique, the computer accidentally pulled the Doc's data (instead of the data of another Talaxian ship) and projected it out into space. All of this has nothing to do with the power source of either the Doc or the holodecks.
Besides, that's pure speculation on your part. There is NOTHING to connect the incident in "Basics" with the reason they don't shut the holodecks down. In fact, nothing is EVER said that I can recall about not shutting the holodecks down because they were worried about what might happen to the Doc's program if they did so. They provided us a specific reason, very early on: the holodecks use a different power source, one that's incompatible with everything else on the ship. That's what the show tells us. It's one of the most insanely stupid things I've ever heard, but regardless, it has nothing to do with any worry about the Doc.
I believe Withers was talking about Intrepid vs. Defiant, not Galaxy, in the post you are responding to here. That being the case, I think his pros/cons list is pretty accurate. Though the ship wouldn't necessarily have no EMH; it would depend on when it got pulled to the DQ. If it was far enough ahead, one could have been installed. Then we don't have to lose the show's best character in this little pretend scenario.
As usual I find myself agreeing with you Withers.
Now if Voyager was Defiant-class, well thats a whole other kettle of fish (or whatever that saying is).
Smaller, built for heavy combat, cramped crew quarters, tiny mess hall and sickbay - no holodecks! Did the Defiant even have any shuttles? 70 years on that boat, and things would have turned out a lot differently.
Ummmm what? The EMH wasn't directly connected to the holodeck - he had to ask the Captain permission to transfer his program over like... weeks into their voyage.
I'm pretty sure thats not the reason the holodeck had a supposedly untouchable source of power. The real reason was... Ummm... Ermmm... So they could have holodeck adventures...? = Translation: there WAS no good reason.
If you were going for "stated" there, then... I do not remember a single instance outside of that Tom line where anyone even hinted at Voyager being a combat-oriented ship. Note, not a combat-CAPABLE ship. It clearly was that. Two different things. Now, if you want to give me quotes from the show stating that Voyager was a warship by design, I'll stand corrected on that point (and maintain my opinion that it doesn't seem like a warship to me, regardless of what they say). But I do not recall such a thing ever being stated outside of that one scene.
Uh... they didn't. They sent them to the Badlands; hardly "deep space". And I never said the ship wasn't designed to defend itself. In fact, I said the opposite to avoid this very tangent: it is CLEARLY a very combat capable ship for its size and purpose. What I'm arguing is that it wasn't "designed for combat." I.e., the Defiant-class was designed for combat, and pretty much nothing else. The Akira-class (as far as the fandom/novelverse goes, anyway) was designed for combat primarily, but was still intended to be used as a multi-role ship. The Galaxy-class was designed as multi-role all around, with no particular strengths but no particular weaknesses either. The Intrepid-class seems to have been designed as multi-role to some degree, but with a focus on deep-space exploration and speed, with sufficient tactical capabilities to match that role. Hence, not "designed for combat", but still very combat-capable. And certainly severely overmatched against either a Maquis raider or a Galor-class cruiser.
While we're on the subject: so they wouldn't send a ship to the Badlands for this kind of mission unless it was a very combat-capable ship, yet they WOULD send this ship on the same mission with only 38 torps?
First off, in this particular scenario, it was HIGHLY unlikely that the Romulans would suddenly turn and attack the Bellerophon, or make any aggressive moves of any kind toward it. This isn't early TNG, this is the Dominion war. Just because they're Romulans doesn't mean they are stupid. By the time of that ep, they are FIRMLY entrenched in the war effort. Each one of the three major powers - UFP, RSE, KE - knows that the loss of even ONE of the three could secure a Dominion victory. The Romulans wouldn't risk that.
Putting that aside... no, you do not need a ship that can "fight & run." Just run. Did you see how many Romulan warbirds were hanging around in the establishing shot of the Bellerophon halfway through the ep? A warship would be useless; you're not going to fight off the entire Romulan home defense fleet if things turn sour. What you want is a ship that can defend itself well enough to keep them off balance long enough to use your speed and maneuverability to get away. The Intrepid is such a ship, but that doesn't mean it would have the level of pure combat power of a Defiant or Akira, or that it was designed with combat missions in mind.
I would say it was neither supported nor contradicted in any explicit way. The only thing that was made absolutely clear was that it was a tactically sound vessel, able to defend itself and powerful for its size, partly due to the advanced nature of its systems.
That STILL doesn't make it a warship by design.
Theory can differ from practice, yes. But this is not so simple: they made a big deal out of it in "Fury", the ep in which Tom makes the comment (and Janeway agrees). They say that course corrections at warp could fracture the hull.
If it were "just" a theory, they wouldn't tell pilots they must adhere to it at the Academy. And even if a theory is just a theory, it has to be based on something. If it had been proven to not be the case, it would go away (especially with how long warp drive - and specifically, Starfleet vessels using warp drive - have been around). They even went as far as to base their actions during the ep on this premise: they ended up making all these silly little warp jumps to avoid making course corrections at warp. That's more than a theory, that's practice. And that is stupid, after the number of times we've seen or heard about a ship casually changing course at warp like it was no big deal in previous Trek shows.
She didn't "use the holodeck." They reconfigured something (I assume sensors... it's been a while since I saw the ep, but obviously something external) to project holograms out into space. During this procedure, which was highly experimental and totally unique, the computer accidentally pulled the Doc's data (instead of the data of another Talaxian ship) and projected it out into space. All of this has nothing to do with the power source of either the Doc or the holodecks.
Besides, that's pure speculation on your part. There is NOTHING to connect the incident in "Basics" with the reason they don't shut the holodecks down. In fact, nothing is EVER said that I can recall about not shutting the holodecks down because they were worried about what might happen to the Doc's program if they did so. They provided us a specific reason, very early on: the holodecks use a different power source, one that's incompatible with everything else on the ship. That's what the show tells us. It's one of the most insanely stupid things I've ever heard, but regardless, it has nothing to do with any worry about the Doc.
I believe Withers was talking about Intrepid vs. Defiant, not Galaxy, in the post you are responding to here. That being the case, I think his pros/cons list is pretty accurate. Though the ship wouldn't necessarily have no EMH; it would depend on when it got pulled to the DQ. If it was far enough ahead, one could have been installed. Then we don't have to lose the show's best character in this little pretend scenario.
Too bad everything wee learned from watching TNG, "DEEP SPACE" Nine & Voy. contradicts most of this, if not all of it.
That doesn't mean it's a combat ship at its core. Intrepid is essentially a multipurpose ship just like most other Starfeel ships, not a combat ship. To illustrate the difference: "The USS Defiant (NX-74205) was the class prototype. It was Starfleet's first dedicated combat vessel, and therefore did not house provision for families or diplomatic missions, nor science labs or recreational facilities." Voyager had all of those at least to a degree. Yet Voyager didn't pack the punch of a Defiant class in combat. While capable of combat, Voyager simply wasn't a pure-bred combat ship like the Defiant. Galaxy class was formidable in combat as well, but that doesn't make it a combat ship either.
Yeah, I was indeed replying to your statement, sorry for the confusion
This is untrue. To quote Memory Alpha: "The class boasted the best navigational sensors, and the highest top speed of any Starfleet vessel until the development of the Prometheus-class." Most of Voyager's systems were technologically superior to those of a Galaxy class, and this includes sensors. How they were portrayed on screen in terms of scanning range etc, is another matter entirely, since it never seems to be constant - for example, one day they can detect ships approaching from nearly a day away, sometimes only minutes away. And this is true in TNG as well as Voyager.Xerxes1979 said:
----
Also, as for the holodeck having a separate, incompatible power source compared to the rest of the system's power sources... I think the writers at least partially realized how silly that was, because for example in Fair Haven they draw power from the holodecks to the rest of the ship, and a few other such interactions with the main power grids are made as well. Of course, it could just be that they forgot it was supposed to be a separate system...
That doesn't mean it's a combat ship at its core. Intrepid is essentially a multipurpose ship just like most other Starfeel ships, not a combat ship. To illustrate the difference: "The USS Defiant (NX-74205) was the class prototype. It was Starfleet's first dedicated combat vessel, and therefore did not house provision for families or diplomatic missions, nor science labs or recreational facilities." Voyager had all of those at least to a degree. Yet Voyager didn't pack the punch of a Defiant class in combat. While capable of combat, Voyager simply wasn't a pure-bred combat ship like the Defiant. Galaxy class was formidable in combat as well, but that doesn't make it a combat ship either.
Saying the ship is "designed for combat" isn't saying it's the ships primary function. It is saying however, that if the ship ends up in a hostile situation that it's also designed to take care of itself. Bringing up "It's designed for combat" was to address a specific question being asked about Voyager. Nobody said Voyager was a combat ship at it's core, not one.
I don't want to get into a bashing VOY kind of thing but given how the show was written, I doubt the kind of ship would have made any difference in seven years. However, if we accept that VOY was written as well as DS9 in a parallel universe then I'm cool, lol.
Anyway, I think that the show would have been far more interesting with an older ship. A major tenant of drama is starting your characters out from a disadvantageous place and seeing how they get out of it. I mean lets really put them in a difficult place where replicators barely work, transporters are iffy and your lucky if the warp engines don't threaten to blow up in your face.
