If voyager was a Galaxy class star ship???

[C.E. Evans]

Which goes back to what I originally said about Federation starships not being that self-sufficient to spend years and years in space without any help.

Correct me if I'm wrong be it seems like you're talking about self sufficiency on the level of a ship that can make they're on Dilithium, make their own food, make their own deuterium, make their own antimatter, make their own duranium and anything else they might need without any outside influence what so ever. Thats never going to happen.

Correct, that's exactly what I'm talking about. A ship will always eventually need to put in somewhere to refuel, resupply, and repair any damage suffered during the course of its mission.

And that E2 enterprise (if I'm remembering the episode correctly) lasted longer then 17 years by far. If I remember right it was 180 years.

I don't know where the 17-year figure came from (maybe it was a typo), but I was simply responding to the post.

Even with help along the way thats outstanding. Now take voyager who has had what? 2-300 years of technological progress? I am not seeing why this is a difficult concept. But then I don't personally see Self Sufficiency as meaning complete and total isolation from anyone they meet along the way.

At this point, it becomes an issue of "what do you call self-sufficient?" or rather "how long can a ship stay in space period?" Inevitably, any spacecraft that can be continually maintained and supplied can stay in space indefinitely. But I don't think there has been any Federation starship design that is totally self-sufficient and can leave Federation space for 5 or 15 years without having to periodically put in somewhere for a pit stop. They're not designed to run for very long completely on their own. Both the generation ship Enterprise in "E2" and the Voyager--regardless of the technological span between them--both could only get by as long as they could with help from others.

As I said earlier upthread, I would suggest that any multi-year deep-space exploration mission likely involves periodic returns to Federation space for supplies, repairs, and regular crew rotations.

 

[Saquist]

Combat-wise is more of an apples and oranges kind of thing. Both ships appear to have the same number of phaser arrays and similar firing arcs, but the Intrepid-class has four torpedo launchers while the Galaxy-class has two (with a third presumably hidden in the rear of the saucer section). Squaring off against ships of comparative size, the two designs probably come out even, but the Intrepid can outflank bigger ships and the Galaxy might be vulnerable to smaller, more maneuverable ships at close range.

I can't call it apple to oranges.
Two Galaxy's faced life and death situations against smaller less powerful combatants and both times the Galaxy went down decisively. Yesterdays Enterprise and Jem'Hadar.

In one situation the Galaxy was only able to bring it's forward tubes to bear once. In the other the Galaxy never lined up a torpedo shot.

That's a significant outcome.
In situations where Intrepid has been out classed by power its been able to out run it's opponents both at impulse and FTL as well to at least maneuver to keep opponents from having it's pick of shots on the ship.

Performance wise, the Intrepid-class has a much higher top speed, but that's only good for very short durations. Otherwise, I think both the Intrepid- and Galaxy-classes routinely travel around Warp 6 and then it becomes a case of which design has more fuel at any given time.

The biggest handicap a Galaxy-class ship might have stranded on its own is probably its larger crew--more mouths to feed and a greater demand on crew support/environmental systems. In the Delta Quadrant, a Galaxy-class ship may have to continually operate at reduced power levels to sustain itself and limit its contacts only to advanced, warp-capable worlds featuring what they need for repairs and supplies.

The Galaxy would have to shut down half the decks actively search for antimatter and deuterium. I guess it's a testament to Intrepid that it never had to search for antimatter. But since Impulse and Warp use hydrogen it's understandable they ran out of this first.

 

[SchwEnt]

Would it be too simplistic to compare this to a sprint versus a marathon?

Intrepid class may be more of a sprinter, a fast nimble ship very good at short term missions.

Galaxy class is certainly not nimble or small.

But the Voyager had to face a 70,000 ly haul back home, a marathon more than a sprint.
So a Galaxy class Voyager would be better able to tackle that rather than an Intrepid class Voyager?

Or is the analogy dumb?

 

[Saquist]

A sprint is like 4.3 second in a 40 yard dash.
While a marathon is like cross country.

All starships are made for cross country it's just a matter of how far are you going.

5k or 40 k.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Combat-wise is more of an apples and oranges kind of thing. Both ships appear to have the same number of phaser arrays and similar firing arcs, but the Intrepid-class has four torpedo launchers while the Galaxy-class has two (with a third presumably hidden in the rear of the saucer section). Squaring off against ships of comparative size, the two designs probably come out even, but the Intrepid can outflank bigger ships and the Galaxy might be vulnerable to smaller, more maneuverable ships at close range.

I can't call it apple to oranges.
Two Galaxy's faced life and death situations against smaller less powerful combatants and both times the Galaxy went down decisively. Yesterdays Enterprise and Jem'Hadar.

In one situation the Galaxy was only able to bring it's forward tubes to bear once. In the other the Galaxy never lined up a torpedo shot.

That's a significant outcome.

Well, in "Yesterday's Enterprise" there was a Galaxy-class ship that was outnumbered by multiple Klingon warships all firing upon it simultaneously. You also have to remember that the Enterprise-D was also trying to protect the Enterprise-C in that battle and was basically making itself a sitting target for the Klingons so the latter ship could get away. I think any Federation ship would "go down decisively" under such circumstances.

In "The Jem'Hadar," a single Dominion ship did a kamikaze on an already crippled Galaxy-class vessel. It was more like a sucker punch to someone who was already on wobbly legs.

In situations where Intrepid has been out classed by power its been able to out run it's opponents both at impulse and FTL as well to at least maneuver to keep opponents from having it's pick of shots on the ship.

Which should be the case when a smaller vessel goes up against a bigger vessel. By that same token, the Enterprise-D can probably outmaneuver a ship larger than itself as well.

Performance wise, the Intrepid-class has a much higher top speed, but that's only good for very short durations. Otherwise, I think both the Intrepid- and Galaxy-classes routinely travel around Warp 6 and then it becomes a case of which design has more fuel at any given time.

The biggest handicap a Galaxy-class ship might have stranded on its own is probably its larger crew--more mouths to feed and a greater demand on crew support/environmental systems. In the Delta Quadrant, a Galaxy-class ship may have to continually operate at reduced power levels to sustain itself and limit its contacts only to advanced, warp-capable worlds featuring what they need for repairs and supplies.

The Galaxy would have to shut down half the decks actively search for antimatter and deuterium. I guess it's a testament to Intrepid that it never had to search for antimatter. But since Impulse and Warp use hydrogen it's understandable they ran out of this first.

The TNG Tech Manual actually features a section about the reduced power mode of a Galaxy-class ship. The majority of the ship systems are powered down and are used only if absolutely necessary. Even life-support is reduced to 50% of normal, and is likely shutdown altogether in non-essential areas.

I would imagine similar reduced power protocols are in place for an Intrepid-class ship.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Would it be too simplistic to compare this to a sprint versus a marathon?

Intrepid class may be more of a sprinter, a fast nimble ship very good at short term missions.

Galaxy class is certainly not nimble or small.

But the Voyager had to face a 70,000 ly haul back home, a marathon more than a sprint.
So a Galaxy class Voyager would be better able to tackle that rather than an Intrepid class Voyager?

Or is the analogy dumb?

I think the top speed of a starship is only important if a vessel has to cover a relatively short distance as quickly as possible. In such a case, its not even a contest. The Intrepid-class wins.

But on a very long voyage, one that will take weeks, months, or even years, it's the ship's normal safe cruising velocity that matters, IMO. That's the top speed a ship can maintain indefinitely without damaging the engines. I think both the Intrepid- and the Galaxy-classes are rated at Warp 6 in that department. I think for most of its time in the Delta Quadrant, the Voyager probably was running at Warp 6 and only went to higher speeds in an emergency or to get someplace fairly close quickly.

 

[Saquist]

Well, in "Yesterday's Enterprise" there was a Galaxy-class ship that was outnumbered by multiple Klingon warships all firing upon it simultaneously. You also have to remember that the Enterprise-D was also trying to protect the Enterprise-C in that battle and was basically making itself a sitting target for the Klingons so the latter ship could get away. I think any Federation ship would "go down decisively" under such circumstances.

Voyager's been rammed and fired on by multiple targets and fully surrounded. It's done much better than Galaxy. Voyager was on the Offensive and Enterprise on the Defensive.

Voyager against those same BOP's would have handled better to protect the E-C. They could use the aft torps and the forward torps as well as the ships agility to avoid fire. Enterprise D sat there and took every single lick.

In "The Jem'Hadar," a single Dominion ship did a kamikaze on an already crippled Galaxy-class vessel. It was more like a sucker punch to someone who was already on wobbly legs.

Once again showing the Galaxy is nothing more than Fortress in most situations and a sitting duck in others. That was the sadest display of a Galaxy Class starship.

Which should be the case when a smaller vessel goes up against a bigger vessel. By that same token, the Enterprise-D can probably outmaneuver a ship larger than itself as well.

By all rights the Galaxy has performed some pretty good manuvers at speed and low speed. Intrepid's size has little to do with it. It's engine power to the size.

Notice Sovereigns lumbering manuvers in ST:N
Yet Excelsior II snaps around like Voyager at Defiant.
Galaxy hauls butt from a stand still executes a hard turn and jumps to warp.


Yesterdays Enterprise was like they were just waiting to get hit.

Performance wise, the Intrepid-class has a much higher top speed, but that's only good for very short durations. Otherwise, I think both the Intrepid- and Galaxy-classes routinely travel around Warp 6 and then it becomes a case of which design has more fuel at any given time.

The TNG Tech Manual actually features a section about the reduced power mode of a Galaxy-class ship. The majority of the ship systems are powered down and are used only if absolutely necessary. Even life-support is reduced to 50% of normal, and is likely shutdown altogether in non-essential areas.

I would imagine similar reduced power protocols are in place for an Intrepid-class ship.

I remember reading those.

 

[exodus]

I think we also have to consider Voyager was built with the knowledge Starfleet gained after WOLF 359. So Voyager was built with the idea in mind that is might come up against a vessel as powerful as a Borg cube.

ENT-D was designed before that and it's only known threat at the time were Klingons & Romulans. Enemies that Starfleet is used to fending off. Voyager is designed to take more stress on it's hull and too run like hell if it's out numbered. I would also think Voyagers smaller design & speed causes a harder time to get a soild lock on when under fire.

If Voyager was built for deep space exploration with little too no support, it's had to be tuff enough to stand on it's own. Not to mention, Voyager was built with combat in mind, the ENT-D was mostly meant to escort Ambassidor's around.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But would a galaxy Class Starship have even needed to make the long haul home?

The kazon would not have fucked with it.

That means that during "Caretaker" the Captain would only have had to deal with banjoman with out the mongrel savages spoiling her childish diplomacy.

Here's the fuckeduppedist.

It would have taken banjoman 10 times longer to process the crew of a galaxy Class Starship. Kathy and her cohorts were originally asleep in stirrups for 3 days before they woke up on the plantation... If it really took 30 days to process a crew of a thousand people, and Caretaker was fated to die of natural causes perhaps 5 days after the Starfleet and maquis ship arrived...

You can se the problem?

The Galaxy Class Voyager's crew would have been still being processed like cattle for their rapings when the Kazon tried to out smart Caretakers Selfdestruct.

Blown up or vittles for the kazon laddar.

Oh.

Would the Val Jean have been larger in comparison too?

Because if there was only 30 maquis like int he real story, and Janeway had a thousand Starfleet crewmen under her command, and absolutely no labour shortfall... Well she had the resources and manpower to keep that tiny band of terrorists in the brig for the entire trip back.

Throw away the key.

Never see them again.

Just like the Equinox 5.

Of course that would mean that Seska would have come forward and insisted on a Starfleet commission equal to her standing in the Cardassian Military rather than be left as a prisoner (cell assignments? Would "couples" be allowed to share cells? Male/female? Forced contraception from the doctor? or would Chakotay order his crew to outbreed the starfleet crew so that in 50 years the maquis would outnumber the starfleet crew and janeway would have to make a decision on them, not that their prison sentence back home woudl be 70 years, which is cruel and unusual... But if Seska was "the Captain's Woman" then she would have been caged and bonking Chakotay to pass the time until she grew tired of her "cover story", afterwhich if she was treated fairly by Janeway allowed input according to her rank as a representative of the Cardassion Union towards policy at leat as much as that noob Kim ...she still would have been a complete a bitch and tried to take over the ship. Enlisting Chakotay's help possibly, who'd turn on her when it becomes obvious that she is the real enemy he has been fighting all this time.

 

[PorthosShadow]

I think we also have to consider Voyager was built with the knowledge Starfleet gained after WOLF 359. So Voyager was built with the idea in mind that is might come up against a vessel as powerful as a Borg cube.

ENT-D was designed before that and it's only known threat at the time were Klingons & Romulans. Enemies that Starfleet is used to fending off. Voyager is designed to take more stress on it's hull and too run like hell if it's out numbered. I would also think Voyagers smaller design & speed causes a harder time to get a soild lock on when under fire.

If Voyager was built for deep space exploration with little too no support, it's had to be tuff enough to stand on it's own. Not to mention, Voyager was built with combat in mind, the ENT-D was mostly meant to escort Ambassidor's around.

Right because The Enterprise-D was built in a period of reletive peace when the biggest threat were The Romulans who had been quiet for well over a century. Then during E-D's run the Federation were introduced to The Borg and The Dominion two threats that The Enterprise-D was never prepared for.

 

[exodus]

I think we also have to consider Voyager was built with the knowledge Starfleet gained after WOLF 359. So Voyager was built with the idea in mind that is might come up against a vessel as powerful as a Borg cube.

ENT-D was designed before that and it's only known threat at the time were Klingons & Romulans. Enemies that Starfleet is used to fending off. Voyager is designed to take more stress on it's hull and too run like hell if it's out numbered. I would also think Voyagers smaller design & speed causes a harder time to get a soild lock on when under fire.

If Voyager was built for deep space exploration with little too no support, it's had to be tuff enough to stand on it's own. Not to mention, Voyager was built with combat in mind, the ENT-D was mostly meant to escort Ambassidor's around.

Right because The Enterprise-D was built in a period of reletive peace when the biggest threat were The Romulans who had been quiet for well over a century. Then during E-D's run the Federation were introduced to The Borg and The Dominion two threats that The Enterprise-D was never prepared for.

Exactly!

Then you have to consider, what was the purpose/function/mission both these types of ships would be sent on.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Guinin said the The Enterprise was a "Ship of Peace".

But then Yar said then her warship was capable of transporting 6000 troops, in exactly the same space Picard's ship of peace could habitate 1000 crew and families, and they were bother externally seemingly the same design.

But then Starfleet was losing that war.

Remember the shape of the ship is constrained to warp geometrics. It can only be certain shapes and some shapes impell with greater efficency than others which has nothing to to do with the shapes associated with aerodynamics... Something I read in a novel, but if this was really true then all ships across the galaxy would look a little more similar.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Well, in "Yesterday's Enterprise" there was a Galaxy-class ship that was outnumbered by multiple Klingon warships all firing upon it simultaneously. You also have to remember that the Enterprise-D was also trying to protect the Enterprise-C in that battle and was basically making itself a sitting target for the Klingons so the latter ship could get away. I think any Federation ship would "go down decisively" under such circumstances.

Voyager's been rammed and fired on by multiple targets and fully surrounded. It's done much better than Galaxy. Voyager was on the Offensive and Enterprise on the Defensive.

Voyager against those same BOP's would have handled better to protect the E-C. They could use the aft torps and the forward torps as well as the ships agility to avoid fire. Enterprise D sat there and took every single lick.

How the Voyager would have fared against multiple Klingon Birds of Prey is a matter of opinion, but in "Yesterday's Enterprise," it was more of situation of the Enterprise-D deliberately setting itself up as a target for the Klingons so the Enterprise-C could get away. If even one Klingon ship got past the Enterprise-D, it would have been all over, so yes, it was a case of making a final stand and holding the line. Under those circumstances, the Enterprise-D did very well holding all those Klingon ships at bay by itself.

In "The Jem'Hadar," a single Dominion ship did a kamikaze on an already crippled Galaxy-class vessel. It was more like a sucker punch to someone who was already on wobbly legs.

Once again showing the Galaxy is nothing more than Fortress in most situations and a sitting duck in others. That was the sadest display of a Galaxy Class starship.

To be fair, it was also a case of not knowing the capabilities and ruthlessness of a new enemy at the time. The Odyssey was caught by surprise, no argument there, but we saw no other Galaxy-class ships fall to Dominion forces after that incident. Lessons were probably learned from the loss of the Odyssey. Once the war started, Galaxy-class ships were generally seen just kicking Dominion butt all over the place...

 

[exodus]

Guinin said the The Enterprise was a "Ship of Peace".

But then Yar said then her warship was capable of transporting 6000 troops, in exactly the same space Picard's ship of peace could habitate 1000 crew and families, and they were bother externally seemingly the same design.

Proving that Voyager isn't the only Trek containing inconsistancies & idea changes.

 

[Withers]

I've had that come across my mind every so often. All throughout history people have built sailing ships that look a little different but the basic...shape and dynamics remain the same. Same for cars and same for tanks, planes and helicopters. There are variations on the theme of course (no one would say a Corolla looks exactly like a Lamborghini) but the same, basic idea is still there, structurally.

When noting how wildly different all the ships are I can't help but think to myself sometimes "Alright, these can't all work." That comes up most when I see Romulan Warbirds from the TNG era. I like them... but it just doesn't seem like it would... work, ya know?

-Withers-​

 

[exodus]

To be fair, it was also a case of not knowing the capabilities and ruthlessness of a new enemy at the time. The Odyssey was caught by surprise, no argument there, but we saw no other Galaxy-class ships fall to Dominion forces after that incident. Lessons were probably learned from the loss of the Odyssey. Once the war started, Galaxy-class ships were generally seen just kicking Dominion butt all over the place...

We saw the Dominion rip thru Starfleet ships like tissue paper in "Sacrifice of the Angels".

How could the Federation be loosing the war if Galaxy class ships were kicking Dominion butt all over the place? Didn't "Favor the Bold" mention the 15th Fleet starting out with 150 ships & only 25 returned?

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's not an inconsistency. that just shows the internally they were ver very different ships. One universe's Enterprise was a cruiseliner with spacious living quarters are afforded towards even the most minor crew, by comparison the Enterprise from the alternate timeline subdivided each of those family sized rooms into 4, and then put eight sets of bunks in each of them, because Tasha probably meant 6 thousand troops in additon to what ever the usual crew compliment was which is going to be well in excess of a thousand.

Political climate = ship design.

Actually by making hundreds of big rooms into thousand of tiny rooms that would have reinforced the ship no end to the point that they could probably withstand being rammed by a dirty bastard every now and then.

 

[Guy Gardener]

When noting how wildly different all the ships are I can't help but think to myself sometimes "Alright, these can't all work." That comes up most when I see Romulan Warbirds from the TNG era. I like them... but it just doesn't seem like it would... work, ya know?

Well I used to think that the baby wormholes and other captured stellar event matter then captured to power their star ships was "held" between their hulls, but that just isn't so after seeing Picarda et all free a sentient universe from a Romulan reactor in Timescape which just like a regular old TBG prop... However all that space between their hulls has to be used somehow because of their strange choice in power soures?

 

[C.E. Evans]

To be fair, it was also a case of not knowing the capabilities and ruthlessness of a new enemy at the time. The Odyssey was caught by surprise, no argument there, but we saw no other Galaxy-class ships fall to Dominion forces after that incident. Lessons were probably learned from the loss of the Odyssey. Once the war started, Galaxy-class ships were generally seen just kicking Dominion butt all over the place...

We saw the Dominion rip thru Starfleet ships like tissue paper in "Sacrifice of the Angels".

Did we see any Galaxy-class ships fall during that episode?

How could the Federation be loosing the war if Galaxy class ships were kicking Dominion butt all over the place?

Was every Federation ship a Galaxy-class?

Didn't "Favor the Bold" mention the 15th Fleet starting out with 150 ships & only 25 returned?

Were there any Galaxy-class ships there? I don't recall any being mentioned.

 

[Anwar]

The Galaxy class held up quite well in the Dominion War once the war actually started. I guess they either upgraded them all or the ones we saw getting trashed easily just happened to be duds (aside from the ENT-D).