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If TOS is NOT your favorite series, why is that the case?

My main thing though is the acting. Thank god Shatner improved over the years because in this series, he was sometimes cringeworthy. There were other issues too, but let's just say I thought either Kelly or Doohan were the series best actors.
There are definitely episodes where one has to say to themselves "What on Earth was Shatner thinking?" Or perhaps it was the director, adamant about Shatner portraying Kirk a certain way. But there are plenty of good episodes where Shatner does a bang-up job. I like him most in the 1st season (discounting "Enemy Within", as I couldn't stand that evil Kirk representation) and first half of the 2nd season. I've gotten the sense that the 3rd season is generally looked upon as the least favorite by a lot of folks. To me, Shatner does overact more in the 3rd season than in the others.

I think Doohan had the most talent of the group, and unfortunately his secondary role didn't give him a chance to exercise it more prominently. Kelly did some great work but y'know, he did have some pretty spotty episodes here and there. I'd put Nimoy as the second most talented, with Shatner and Kelly at about a draw. Nimoy had a very tough character to pull off, the first of its kind: a human-alien halfbreed.
 
That's another problem with TOS - it's far too oriented on just the three main characters. I mean, I love or at least like them all in varying degrees (Spock remains my all-time favorite Trek character), but filling out the other characters would have made for a more enriching show, I think.

For that matter - and I just thought of this - filling out the main characters wouldn't have hurt any either. How much do we really know about Kirk and McCoy, much less Scotty, Uhura, Sulu et. al. We actually know more about Spock than any of the others, I'd guess because the writers figured we really needed to since he was half-alien and all. That's just not right.
 
There were some episodes that gave the secondary characters more time than usual... one could say "Lights of Zetar" was a Scotty episode, as well as "Wolf in the Fold". We finally got a little more time with McCoy in "For the World is Hollow...". Chekov had some good focus scenes on a couple of occasions ("Spectre of the Gun", "Way To Eden"), but certainly not enough to develop his character. Poor Sulu had practically nothing compared to Chekov ("Naked Time" was probably the most, followed by "Mirror, Mirror" and "Shore Leave")--I can understand why Takei was rather put off by Koenig showing up on the scene. I think Chekov's character was more interesting, anyway.

I think part of this was just the infancy of television production at the time. And if we had gone on to additional seasons, we probably would have seen more secondary character development.
 
^ I hope so, too. But we'll never know. And of course the question was "If it isn't, why isn't that the case?" - and that question is in the present tense. This isn't something that bothered me way back when, but it affects my judgement of the show now.

And yes, Sulu was about a jillion times more interesting than Chekov, as far as I could tell. Edit: And you know what else? Chekov's accent was sooooo annoying! Yes, I know - standards of the time and all that. But still. Come on - you can admit it to me! ;)
 
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I love TOS and it's my second fav series. But DS9 is the fav. First, it was really serious about it's character development as well as it's universe development. Second, it was the first Trek series to try to break away from the "put 'em on a starship and go" template.

DS9
TOS
TNG
S4 of Enteprise for me.
 
Interesting topic. Let me start off by saying that I'm not going to touch on the new movie at all in this post. For one thing, knowing me, it's going to be a long post even WITHOUT that being brought up. For another, I haven't seen it yet, and don't want to judge it one way or another until I do. So! Onto the real post:

TOS is definitely not my fave. I do like certain eps, but honestly, I find a majority of it's eps to range from "Eh, it's ok" to downright awful. But for me, it comes down to "watchability". And a large part of what contributes to that is just an overall feel. Also, watchability is separate from significance.

Let me elaborate on all this. By significance, I mean how much impact a show had, how much respect I have for it, how good it was for it's time. And in that regard, TOS is certainly very significant. It was the first show of it's kind, it broke a lot of barriers, and of course, laid the groundwork for the franchise.

Watchability, though... not so much, for me. Now, others have mentioned that which show(s) you grew up with can have an impact on this, and I agree. I think that the fact that I grew up with TNG, and only saw TOS in the context of "this older show that came before TNG", has influenced what I like. But it's not just the fact that I watched TNG first, it's also about a certain overall style of storytelling, of TV show producing. Much of what makes TOS seem dated now comes (logically) from the fact that it was made in the 60's, and others in this thread have detailed those things quite well (especially JustKate and Gary7). The fact that TOS was made so long ago is an explanation for a lot of it, but it doesn't change the fact that those elements - even if they are present in the show for a reason - make it harder for me to watch the show. And that ties into something for me that relates not just to Trek, but to storytelling and TV shows in general: I like modern stuff better. This is especially true of certain aspects in particular; when it comes to TOS, the sexism is probably the one thing that I find the hardest to get past.

When it comes to stylistic elements (look of costumes and sets, look of the ships, style of background music), storytelling formula, and overall feel (which in TOS is very much "And this week, another strange new world!" *cue dramatic chord*), I personally find that seasons 3-7 of TNG and the entirety of DS9 are better in every way. I'm not talking about effects or film quality, I'm talking about characterization, story concepts, and production values. And I'm also not saying that these things in TOS are objectively bad, this is just about my personal viewpoint. But as I mentioned above, this expands beyond Trek, and is true of sci-fi in general, and really storytelling in general, in just about any medium. The campiness of TOS is very much one of the main things that makes it harder for me to watch, while for many people, that seems to be one of the main things they like about it.

As for the question (which I find a very interesting one) of what you think of when you say the words "Star Trek" and don't clarify which show you mean... I don't think of TOS. But I don't think of TNG or DS9, either. I don't think of any of the shows. I think of a setting. The name "Star Trek" calls to mind the universe that all of these stories are part of.

Having said that... while I don't think of any of the shows, per se, I do think of the 24th century before I think of the 23rd. For me, the 23rd century is like history or backstory. I still enjoy parts of it, and it's interesting to look back on, but the sub-section of Trek that always has and always will hold my interest the most is the late 24th-century. And yes, that includes Voyager; despite how flawed I found that series, I still liked it on the whole, just not nearly as much as TNG or (especially) DS9. Voyager had the potential to be much better than it was, and severely underused certain aspects (i.e., the Maquis/Starfleet tension, showing from week to week that heavy damage isn't just whisked away next ep like in TNG, etc), but it still was - at times - excellent, even if it had a lot of rocky times, as well. But going back to that concept of watchability... If you were to ask me, "Between TOS and Voyager, which show do you think better executed it's premise? Which show more effectively did what it set out to do?" I would say TOS. But if you asked me "Which show do you enjoy watching more? If you grabbed 7 random eps from each, which one has a more likely chance of entertaining you for those 5-6 hours?" I would say Voyager. TNG (barring the first two seasons... well, especially that abysmal first season), DS9 (only a handful of bad eps), and Voyager (LOTS of bad eps, and more than that, eps with poorly thought out concepts, but still, a large number of good ones, IMO) just have an overall feel, brought about by a combination of visual style, musical style, and writing style, that I just find much more engaging. This concept (which I hope I have presented in a way that makes at least a tiny bit of sense) is why I think that - by far - the finest production ever made involving the TOS characters and era is Star Trek VI.

Breaking down all the series, I'd say it goes like this for me:
DS9
TNG
Voyager
TOS (only a bit behind Voyager really... despite how much more "watchable" I find Voyager, TOS still gets points for it's significance and impact)
ENT (pretty far behind the pack... potential watchability is ruined by abysmal writing and an even greater failure to explore it's potential than Voyager. Also, it's one thing to not cling to canon like an oasis in a desert... it's another thing to just throw it out the window, and contradict well established aspects of a long-running franchise on a whim.)

All of that said, I don't look down on TOS or those who consider it the best Trek series. Everything I've said here relates to my own opinions; I may not get as much out of TOS as I do the later ones, but if someone else holds the opposite viewpoint, hey, that's fine with me. And while I find it less interesting than the later era, I do respect the fact that without the original series, there would BE no TNG, no DS9, no Voyager. It's important to remember that.
 
I'm one of those people who didn't really grow up on Star Trek for any of the shows. Sure, I had seen TOS reruns on networks on and off for years, but aside from sitting down with one of those once in a blue moon (and even then I usually didn't finish the ep), I never really watched Star Trek consistently until the last year or so where I have finished TNG with the exception of Nemesis and seen all but the last half of season 7 of DS9.

I always thought all those TOS reruns were cheesy and uninteresting which is why, honestly, I never got into Star Trek until a good friend of mine coaxed me into watching TNG. And to be perfectly frank, I still think that quite a few of those episodes are cheesy and uninteresting, and I don't mean visually. There are a few standouts like "Balance of Terror" and "City on the Edge of Forever", but I think that overall the style of storytelling is outdated and does little to entertain me. To say nothing of the sexism, hammy acting (lookin' at you Shatner), and blatant and forceful use of music. That Starfleet was apparently well over 95% white human male in TOS doesn't do much for it either.

Like Saito S has said, there is a difference between signifigance and entertainment value from person to person. I don't really care for TOS for the most part. But I can respect that it WAS signifigant for its time and it did some things that no one had done before. It went where no man had gone before, so to speak.

However, when I see TOS on TV these days, it's usually a swing and a miss. And even for the really good TOS episodes, they don't begin to hold a candle to "Chain of Command", "Duet", "Best of Both Worlds", or "Rocks and Shoals", to name a few. TNG and DS9 represent what I find to be just...a better type of storytelling once each show hits its stride, especially DS9. There's more character evolution, more world development, more things that actually have lasting consequences, more arching stories (which I think is one of DS9's biggest assets, some of those arcs) etc. There's a much improved use of music, both shows have far better female characters, and I find Picard and Sisko to be better, more three-dimensional leading men.

And I don't fault TOS for this, because...well, it ISN'T TOS' fault. It was what they could do with what they had. But frankly, having LCARS displays, better looking phasers/torpedos, and more dynamic fights and (IMO) cooler looking ships DOES impact the shows for me and make it part of why I enjoy them more than TOS. It's a small part in the long run of things, but I can't deny that it is a factor.

Ultimately, I just feel that TOS shows its age in ways that TNG (at least TNG 3-7) doesn't. I respect what it set into motion and I recognize that it was extremely signifigant, but it's definitely my least favorite when simply comparing it to TNG and DS9 as "a television show".

I know what I'm saying may be blasphemy to some people for not liking "y'know, Star Trek", but I just think those two are better shows and I don't get much out of the original. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes for those who still like TOS. Just tossing in my two cents.
 
Er, I accidentally double-posted my message. Somehow. Thus this edit. Deletion of this would be appreciated.
 
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As you know, Gary, I love TOS, but...



A bigger problem for me is the almost total lack of character development. There is some for Spock, I guess, and some for the secondary characters (though damn little), but nobody else. The Kirk, the McCoy, the Scotty that we see at the end of season 3 are the same as they were early in season 1. In fact, the Federation we see at the end is identical to the one we were introduced to in the beginning.

Agree:

The minor characters get pretty short shrift, sadly.

Disagree:

Kirk absolutely changes from the beginning to the end. He's more comfortable with women, for one thing. McCoy changes, too, particularly vis a vis Spock.

As for the Federation, I don't imagine a galaxy-spanning government changes much in two to five years, but there are differences. It feels tighter-knit in later seasons, the Enterprise less alone out there. Also, for what it's worth, the uniforms change in the third season.

None of this is meant to denigrate your Trek interests and disinterests. There's a lot right and wrong with TOS, but I think there is more development in there than you've noticed.
 
As you know, Gary, I love TOS, but...



A bigger problem for me is the almost total lack of character development. There is some for Spock, I guess, and some for the secondary characters (though damn little), but nobody else. The Kirk, the McCoy, the Scotty that we see at the end of season 3 are the same as they were early in season 1. In fact, the Federation we see at the end is identical to the one we were introduced to in the beginning.

Agree:

The minor characters get pretty short shrift, sadly.

Disagree:

Kirk absolutely changes from the beginning to the end. He's more comfortable with women, for one thing. McCoy changes, too, particularly vis a vis Spock.

As for the Federation, I don't imagine a galaxy-spanning government changes much in two to five years, but there are differences. It feels tighter-knit in later seasons, the Enterprise less alone out there. Also, for what it's worth, the uniforms change in the third season.

None of this is meant to denigrate your Trek interests and disinterests. There's a lot right and wrong with TOS, but I think there is more development in there than you've noticed.

You could be right, but I've seen all the episodes many times (as you no doubt have as well), including several times in order, and I never saw a thing. In particular, I never saw any real change between Spock and McCoy - and I really wanted to. You'd see it in one episode, but then (as Gary7 noted earlier), the next episode would roll around and it would be the same thing all over.

But next time I watch them in order, I'll see if I can detect it. I'd like it to be there because it's one of the things that really ticked me off about McCoy, and I don't want to be ticked off at him! Who wants to be angry at dear old Bones?
 
That's another problem with TOS - it's far too oriented on just the three main characters. I mean, I love or at least like them all in varying degrees (Spock remains my all-time favorite Trek character), but filling out the other characters would have made for a more enriching show, I think.

I have to strongly agree. I liked the more ensemble quality of the first season. Sure, I like the Big Three, but it gets old.

Similarly, I got tired of Big Three stories in the novels and fan fic. It's a huge universe--I want to see more ships and more side characters.

That's why I was way more excited about Exeter than New Voyages.
 
As you know, Gary, I love TOS, but...



A bigger problem for me is the almost total lack of character development. There is some for Spock, I guess, and some for the secondary characters (though damn little), but nobody else. The Kirk, the McCoy, the Scotty that we see at the end of season 3 are the same as they were early in season 1. In fact, the Federation we see at the end is identical to the one we were introduced to in the beginning.

Agree:

The minor characters get pretty short shrift, sadly.

Disagree:

Kirk absolutely changes from the beginning to the end. He's more comfortable with women, for one thing. McCoy changes, too, particularly vis a vis Spock.

As for the Federation, I don't imagine a galaxy-spanning government changes much in two to five years, but there are differences. It feels tighter-knit in later seasons, the Enterprise less alone out there. Also, for what it's worth, the uniforms change in the third season.

None of this is meant to denigrate your Trek interests and disinterests. There's a lot right and wrong with TOS, but I think there is more development in there than you've noticed.

You could be right, but I've seen all the episodes many times (as you no doubt have as well), including several times in order, and I never saw a thing. In particular, I never saw any real change between Spock and McCoy - and I really wanted to. You'd see it in one episode, but then (as Gary7 noted earlier), the next episode would roll around and it would be the same thing all over.

But next time I watch them in order, I'll see if I can detect it. I'd like it to be there because it's one of the things that really ticked me off about McCoy, and I don't want to be ticked off at him! Who wants to be angry at dear old Bones?

Hmmm... It does seem like they took some development in the 2nd season and put it on the back burner for 3rd, I will concede :) On the other hand, I think TOS laid a good foundation for fan elaboration so a lot of that unrealized potential does eventually see the light of day.

I reiterate: TOS was a good show with bad episodes. TNG was a bad show with good episodes.
 
^ Well, I think they were both good shows with both good and bad episodes. I love them both, really - and DS9 and VOY, too.
 
TOS used to be my favorite series from when I was a little kid up until when I was about 22 years of age. Then DS9 became my favorite series gradually as I realized that due to it's primitive 'episodic' formula, TOS had no possible way to compete with DS9 in terms of epic series-wide story and character development. On these fronts, DS9 blows TOS (and every other Trek show, and most shows in general) out of the water.

On the other hand, the reason DS9 is better than TOS is because in addition to the story and character development, it maintains the TOS principles of compelling characters; fun; adventure; deep, thought-provoking stories; fascinating, non-generic dialogue; internal conflict; humor; and great actors. I think of DS9 as an upgraded, more fully-realized version of TOS. DS9 is like TOS' big brother: they are two peas in a pod (of glory!) :techman:

I love both TOS and DS9 because they share those common elements that make them great shows. Because the other Trek shows don't have those elements, I don't even like the other Trek shows.

If TOS had character development and series-wide story development, then I'd have a really hard time deciding if it was better than DS9 or not.
 
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