If TOS is NOT your favorite series, why is that the case?
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Well, I was born in the 80s, so I was raised on TNG and the subsequent spin-offs. That was the kind of Trek I liked, the kind I was used to. When I was younger, I probably felt that TOS was just too cheesy for me to get into. Eventually, I did watch the series in its entirety, and I can certainly appreciate it, but I can't deny that it's still a little dated to me.
Don't get me wrong, I do actually like TOS -- it's just that I can't help but think, "Man, this is so 1960s" when I watch it. Of course, I'm starting to think similar things when I watch early TNG episodes (albeit in that case I'm thinking "Man, this is so 80s"), so perhaps it's just the fate of most TV shows to become dated eventually.
When I watch TOS, I just try to focus on the stories and characters, without letting myself get too distracted by the limited effects, unconvincing sets, era-specific fashions and hairstyles, and occasional attitudes and assumptions that are already outdated in present times.
Don't get me wrong, I do actually like TOS -- it's just that I can't help but think, "Man, this is so 1960s" when I watch it. Of course, I'm starting to think similar things when I watch early TNG episodes (albeit in that case I'm thinking "Man, this is so 80s"), so perhaps it's just the fate of most TV shows to become dated eventually.
When I watch TOS, I just try to focus on the stories and characters, without letting myself get too distracted by the limited effects, unconvincing sets, era-specific fashions and hairstyles, and occasional attitudes and assumptions that are already outdated in present times.
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, Daneel. I can understand... an older friend of mine is into 50's music and... while I can appreciate the musical achievements of that era, I grew up with later music and so it just feels dated to me. Must be a similar idea with TOS... if you didn't grow up with it, chances are it won't have special meaning for you.
Well, while I can appreciate what has been said so far, I did grow up with the original series. It had its cheese element yet was the best there was for its genre (at least, that's how I felt). Looking back at it while Star Trek developed over the years, the original series is certainly extra cheesy now. But to be quite honest with you, I would not change a thing. Furthermore, the Star Trek we know today would not be what it is with out the original. You can't deny that the original characters (with all over acting or what ever you call it) gave premise to the future characters. Having said that, I am extremely curious about how the new movie plays out.
I remember TOS before I was ever introduced to other Star Trek shows, so it holds a certain sentimentality. But when watching it now, I have the most trouble getting over the attitudes towards women. It seems to be a common theme running through most of the episodes that women appear only to be ogled or flirt with main characters, or to be the character showing too much emotion. We don't really see women making decisions, holding command posts, or even so much as dressing as though they have any self-respect.
Still, TOS is the only series I read novels and fan fiction about. I really want it to be my favorite. The novels (for the most part) do not reflect the apparant sexism seen in the show. If anything, they often "fix" some of this in the characters and stories. In my mind, this brings TOS close to perfection.
Still, TOS is the only series I read novels and fan fiction about. I really want it to be my favorite. The novels (for the most part) do not reflect the apparant sexism seen in the show. If anything, they often "fix" some of this in the characters and stories. In my mind, this brings TOS close to perfection.
As you know, Gary, I love TOS, but...
But there are things about it that bother me. The ingrained sexism, as described by Kythe, is a problem. I can usually overlook it, but not always.
A bigger problem for me is the almost total lack of character development. There is some for Spock, I guess, and some for the secondary characters (though damn little), but nobody else. The Kirk, the McCoy, the Scotty that we see at the end of season 3 are the same as they were early in season 1. In fact, the Federation we see at the end is identical to the one we were introduced to in the beginning.
Now, I don't entirely blame TOS for this - I don't think you saw much character development on any adventure show of the time, or many shows of any genre, period. But I really do think that's one of the things that dates the show, at least as much as the special effects, and maybe more. They did the best they could with the special effects. They could have done better with character development.
Another thing that bothers me these days is how so many of the episodes include what I'll call stock elements. For example: heavy-handed morals; cute girls who fall in love with Kirk - and as we know, it is almost always Kirk - at the drop of a hat; female crew members who act like simpering love-sick idiots instead of Starfleet officers (Nurse Chapel mooning after Spock, Carolyn mooning after Apollo, and worst of all, Marla mooning after Khan, an authentic genocidal whacko); societies that are ridiculously Earth-like; societies in which some sort of super computer thingy controls the society; Kirk getting in fights and being picturesquely injured; Spock managing to hide the fact that he has pointed ears and slanted eyebrows by cleverly wearing a hat; and of course those sometimes funny but sometimes stupid little jokes right at the very end of episodes that should not have ended with a joke.
And I know it's heretical to criticise the Big Three, and I don't mean to, but early on I got really tired of That Scene between McCoy and Spock. You know which one I mean: Kirk is in jeopardy, Spock reacts logically, McCoy gets irate and implies that Spock doesn't care at all about his dear friend because Spock has no emotions, and this is even though McCoy has to know perfectly well (from previous episodes) that Spock does care. At age 10, I'm like, "Why does McCoy say that every time even though he has to know it isn't true?"
It's faked-up drama - in fact, a lot of that stuff is faked-up drama. Trek didn't need it, but it used it.
Whew - that sounds a lot more critical than I really feel. I do still enjoy the show, and it has a special place in my heart, but I find that I enjoy it more if I take it episode by episode. That way, I don't expect character development - I just sit back and enjoy the ride.
But there are things about it that bother me. The ingrained sexism, as described by Kythe, is a problem. I can usually overlook it, but not always.
A bigger problem for me is the almost total lack of character development. There is some for Spock, I guess, and some for the secondary characters (though damn little), but nobody else. The Kirk, the McCoy, the Scotty that we see at the end of season 3 are the same as they were early in season 1. In fact, the Federation we see at the end is identical to the one we were introduced to in the beginning.
Now, I don't entirely blame TOS for this - I don't think you saw much character development on any adventure show of the time, or many shows of any genre, period. But I really do think that's one of the things that dates the show, at least as much as the special effects, and maybe more. They did the best they could with the special effects. They could have done better with character development.
Another thing that bothers me these days is how so many of the episodes include what I'll call stock elements. For example: heavy-handed morals; cute girls who fall in love with Kirk - and as we know, it is almost always Kirk - at the drop of a hat; female crew members who act like simpering love-sick idiots instead of Starfleet officers (Nurse Chapel mooning after Spock, Carolyn mooning after Apollo, and worst of all, Marla mooning after Khan, an authentic genocidal whacko); societies that are ridiculously Earth-like; societies in which some sort of super computer thingy controls the society; Kirk getting in fights and being picturesquely injured; Spock managing to hide the fact that he has pointed ears and slanted eyebrows by cleverly wearing a hat; and of course those sometimes funny but sometimes stupid little jokes right at the very end of episodes that should not have ended with a joke.
And I know it's heretical to criticise the Big Three, and I don't mean to, but early on I got really tired of That Scene between McCoy and Spock. You know which one I mean: Kirk is in jeopardy, Spock reacts logically, McCoy gets irate and implies that Spock doesn't care at all about his dear friend because Spock has no emotions, and this is even though McCoy has to know perfectly well (from previous episodes) that Spock does care. At age 10, I'm like, "Why does McCoy say that every time even though he has to know it isn't true?"
It's faked-up drama - in fact, a lot of that stuff is faked-up drama. Trek didn't need it, but it used it.
Whew - that sounds a lot more critical than I really feel. I do still enjoy the show, and it has a special place in my heart, but I find that I enjoy it more if I take it episode by episode. That way, I don't expect character development - I just sit back and enjoy the ride.
^^ Well said, Kate.
It would be inconsiderate of me not to recognize the fact that Star Trek is indeed sexist, despite breaking down a lot of barriers. Being male, it doesn't stand out as much for me. But it is there, sadly part of that late 60's era. Remember, the NBC executives were extremely difficult to deal with, especially with their male chauvinistic subjective views. Roddenberry had to fight hard just to get as far as he did. Remember, he wanted a female XO and had to back off on that.
Given the budgets and lack of technology, you have to take those overtly Earth-like planets and societies with a grain of salt. I wish the remastered version could improve upon it... oh well.
But yeah, one of my biggest beefs with the series is the lack of character development. We had but a brief 3 seasons. Yet, the whole McCoy-Spock conflict was overly done. "All Our Yesterdays" is the last episode of exposing it... and overlooking the time travel to the distant past effect on both McCoy and Spock, there does seem to be a tiny bit of development. But overall I have to say that there were a number of times where McCoy is so damned petty and vindictive... it's like "Dammit Bones, drop it and stop being so damned insecure. Give Spock some respect." This could have been an arc of development in the series, but it wasn't. We see earlier episodes where Spock and McCoy have a breakthrough, become closer... even what we could call a budding friendship. But then later, "here we go again"... McCoy's behavior is as if nothing changed.
In retrospect, we also have to remember that this is late 60's television. Color TV was a relatively new thing, even. The sophistication of the TV episode production houses we have today contrasts dramatically. This show pioneered so much. I think that's part of what allows me to overlook how dated it is and all the flaws that go along with it.
It would be inconsiderate of me not to recognize the fact that Star Trek is indeed sexist, despite breaking down a lot of barriers. Being male, it doesn't stand out as much for me. But it is there, sadly part of that late 60's era. Remember, the NBC executives were extremely difficult to deal with, especially with their male chauvinistic subjective views. Roddenberry had to fight hard just to get as far as he did. Remember, he wanted a female XO and had to back off on that.
Given the budgets and lack of technology, you have to take those overtly Earth-like planets and societies with a grain of salt. I wish the remastered version could improve upon it... oh well.
But yeah, one of my biggest beefs with the series is the lack of character development. We had but a brief 3 seasons. Yet, the whole McCoy-Spock conflict was overly done. "All Our Yesterdays" is the last episode of exposing it... and overlooking the time travel to the distant past effect on both McCoy and Spock, there does seem to be a tiny bit of development. But overall I have to say that there were a number of times where McCoy is so damned petty and vindictive... it's like "Dammit Bones, drop it and stop being so damned insecure. Give Spock some respect." This could have been an arc of development in the series, but it wasn't. We see earlier episodes where Spock and McCoy have a breakthrough, become closer... even what we could call a budding friendship. But then later, "here we go again"... McCoy's behavior is as if nothing changed.
In retrospect, we also have to remember that this is late 60's television. Color TV was a relatively new thing, even. The sophistication of the TV episode production houses we have today contrasts dramatically. This show pioneered so much. I think that's part of what allows me to overlook how dated it is and all the flaws that go along with it.
I was born in 1976. I became a sci-fi fan through the original Star Wars films. My interest in the genre increased as I absorbed shows like Knight Rider, Transformers, Robotech and Voltron. I became a Trek fan by way of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
TOS is my favorite Trek series.
TOS is my favorite Trek series.
In which case, FalTorPan, you might enjoy Gary's other thread, "If TOS is your favorite series, has it always been?":
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=88560.
Gosh, I sound like a commercial, don't I?
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=88560.
Gosh, I sound like a commercial, don't I?
How can you call yourself a Star Trek fan and not like, you know... Star Trek?
Mmh, first off, I'm not quite sure which Trek series is my favourite. Apart from TAS, which I never watched, and Voyager, which I gave up on, it's difficult for me to choose. They all have elements I love. If I really had to choose, I'd probably pick DS9. I grew up with TOS and watched as a kid in reruns.
I guess, I could say that it's not my favourite for a mix of the various reasons already mentioned. The things I love about it are the big three, especially Spock, the way most episodes deal with a fundamental problem/question concerning ourselves in a rather abstract way and the visuals.
I noticed the sexism and elements of clichéd storytelling early on, and nowadays I also feel the lack of character development. These things never bugged me very much because I saw Trek as a product of its time and I still believed it was ground breaking and new at the time.
But ever since I watched the first two seasons of classic Doctor Who, which aired well before Star Trek, TOS pales in comparison. I recognised several story elements from TOS, which Doctor Who did first. It's socially more mature, has continuity and character development (though not that much).
I tell myself that they're two different kinds of show but to me, Star Trek just isn't the be all and end all in Sci-Fi, anymore.
I guess, I could say that it's not my favourite for a mix of the various reasons already mentioned. The things I love about it are the big three, especially Spock, the way most episodes deal with a fundamental problem/question concerning ourselves in a rather abstract way and the visuals.
I noticed the sexism and elements of clichéd storytelling early on, and nowadays I also feel the lack of character development. These things never bugged me very much because I saw Trek as a product of its time and I still believed it was ground breaking and new at the time.
But ever since I watched the first two seasons of classic Doctor Who, which aired well before Star Trek, TOS pales in comparison. I recognised several story elements from TOS, which Doctor Who did first. It's socially more mature, has continuity and character development (though not that much).
I tell myself that they're two different kinds of show but to me, Star Trek just isn't the be all and end all in Sci-Fi, anymore.
I don't think anybody (so far) has said he or she doesn't like, you know...Star Trek
, but the question isn't "Do you like it?" We all like it, so far, and I do love it. But that's not the question. The question is, "Why isn't it your favorite?"
I do like Star Trek, just not as much as DS9 or TNG, which as people have been saying, are the two I grew up with. I think if you either grew up with TOS when it was airing originally or when it was in syndication, then you're pretty much the other way round! 
Star Trek has some excellent episodes, and I generally favour the first season. I find it hard to watch in batches though, unlike other TV shows that I like. I suppose factors that weigh it down are what JustKate has been saying: sexism is rife throughout the show within weak female characters who are all loved up; their is a lack of development; and the show has aged, not just in appearance. Generally it pretty much boils down to the show being a product of the 60s, which is why it can be so interesting to watch as well.
Star Trek has some excellent episodes, and I generally favour the first season. I find it hard to watch in batches though, unlike other TV shows that I like. I suppose factors that weigh it down are what JustKate has been saying: sexism is rife throughout the show within weak female characters who are all loved up; their is a lack of development; and the show has aged, not just in appearance. Generally it pretty much boils down to the show being a product of the 60s, which is why it can be so interesting to watch as well.
I feel compelled to post in here because I do love TOS. The thing is, though, that I don't put it in the same category as the rest of the series. It was from a different time and it had its own unique charm. I can't say its my favorite Star Trek series because that compares it to the others, and I feel like there's just too much separating them to make any judgment reasonable. What I can say is that I love TOS and, out of the later series, I love DS9 and have a healthy respect for TNG. But I can't ever pit TOS against DS9, it just wouldn't be right. You don't take a classic motorcycle that has its own inherent charm and put it up against something that was just made this year. The things that make the classic, well, a classic, are kind of unquantifiable.
^^ Well said, Beef. It is hard - and probably unfair - to compare shows from different time periods.
I notice several of you have mentioned lack of character development, but I disagree with this being a problem. With possible exception of Spock, TOS isn't a character driven show. It doesn't need to be to succeed. It's an adventure show portraying a short period in the lives of a group of people who travel extensively, meet interesting and different people, and have new experiences. It works well on that level.
For those of us who have seen the show in re-runs, there can be some advantages of the apparant lack of character development. You can pretty much watch the episodes in any order and still understand them the same way.
I also have a different perspective on McCoy's attitude toward Spock. I don't see him as disrespectful, I think it's just how he communicates. They have developed a certain "form" in their relationship which they follow, not out of need or because McCoy really believes Spock doesn't care about Kirk, but because it is a style of communication that they have become accustomed to and that works for them. It's a part of McCoy's personality and Spock responds accordingly.
I notice several of you have mentioned lack of character development, but I disagree with this being a problem. With possible exception of Spock, TOS isn't a character driven show. It doesn't need to be to succeed. It's an adventure show portraying a short period in the lives of a group of people who travel extensively, meet interesting and different people, and have new experiences. It works well on that level.
For those of us who have seen the show in re-runs, there can be some advantages of the apparant lack of character development. You can pretty much watch the episodes in any order and still understand them the same way.
I also have a different perspective on McCoy's attitude toward Spock. I don't see him as disrespectful, I think it's just how he communicates. They have developed a certain "form" in their relationship which they follow, not out of need or because McCoy really believes Spock doesn't care about Kirk, but because it is a style of communication that they have become accustomed to and that works for them. It's a part of McCoy's personality and Spock responds accordingly.
It's simply the time I grew up in. I came to appreciate Star Trek after watching it, but my favorite will always be either TNG or DS9 depending on the mood. I just really loved 90's Star Trek and am sad that we won't get anything like that again.
I grew up on TNG and Voyager. Not so much TNG as Voyager, though. But I watch TOS Remastered (And original) and say "Man, that's really cool"
But yeah, Special efects are one of my few gripes.
But yeah, Special efects are one of my few gripes.
Special effects really isn't a gripe for me with the series. I understand the time in which it was made and for the time, those effects were probably revolutionary. My main thing though is the acting. Thank god Shatner improved over the years because in this series, he was sometimes cringeworthy. There were other issues too, but let's just say I thought either Kelly or Doohan were the series best actors.
Like in Turnabout Intruder? I could literally laugh at the scene when Kirk starts rolling around and flopping around on the walls.
I am old enough to (barely) remember TOS in its first run. I primarily watched it in syndication after school. Being a female, I have found it very much a product of its time, sorta like JustKate.
Why do I prefer TNG? Crusher & Pulaski, Troi, Guinan & Ro made me feel a part of the Trek universe. I like ENT more because of its modern production values. I suspect over time I'll like ENT less, and TNG will remain my favorite.
TOS is still very nostalgic for me, and I will usually watch whatever stray episode I stumble across on TV. What do I love about TOS? Kirk, Spock & Bones!!! I love the camp feeling & the music!!! I love that it spawned the other series.
Why do I prefer TNG? Crusher & Pulaski, Troi, Guinan & Ro made me feel a part of the Trek universe. I like ENT more because of its modern production values. I suspect over time I'll like ENT less, and TNG will remain my favorite.
TOS is still very nostalgic for me, and I will usually watch whatever stray episode I stumble across on TV. What do I love about TOS? Kirk, Spock & Bones!!! I love the camp feeling & the music!!! I love that it spawned the other series.
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