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If there had been no wars..

If you look at history its mostly about wars.

:sigh:

You know--speaking as an historian--when I read things like this, it just makes me want to cry.
Well, tell me "historian", off hand what else happened in 1066 besides the Norman Invasion?

"Historian"?

Would you like me to post my CV? My class syllabi? A scan of my degree? Links to a few journal articles?

Where do you get off making an insinuation like that, anyway?

You don't know me from Adam. And yet you here you are, casting aspersions on both my professional qualifications, and my honesty?

What do you do for a living, "enlisted person"?

How would you like it if I started passing remarks on your "qualifications" and "honesty"?

I am not an historian but I love and read up on historical things whenever I can. There just is not much out there but when x defeated Y at the battle of Z.

Well, since I happen to have a contract to publish my book with Oxford University Press, let's take a look at their website, and see what kinds of titles we can find in their British & Irish history line:

Donal A Kerr, A Nation of Beggars? Priests, People, and Politics in Famine Ireland, 1846-52 (scoial & religious history)

James Pereiro, 'Ethos' and the Oxford Movement: At the Heart of Tractarianism (church history)

Salahuddin Malik, 1857: War of Independence or Clash of Civilizations? British Public Reactions (cultural history)

Ann Hughes, Gangraena and the Struggle for the English Revolution (intellectual and political history)

Alan Deyermond, A Century of British Medieval Studies (general history)

Donald McKenzie and Maureen Bell (eds.), A Chornology and Calendar of Documents relating to the London Book Trade (3 vols.) (historiography)

J H Burns and H L A Hart, A Comment on the Commentaries and the Fragment on Government (intellectual history)

John Cannon, A Dictionary of British History (reference)

Christopher Harvie, A Floating Commonwealth: Politics, Culture, and Technology on Britain's Atlantic Coast (cultural history & the history of transportation)

David Underdown, A Freeborn People: Politics and the Nation in Seventeenth-Century England (political & cultural history)

Etc.

There's a section on military history too, if that's all that interests you. But clearly, there's a lot more out there than just 'when x defeated Y at the battle of Z'.
 
Goliath, what period of history do you usually focus on? Best I can say is that I'm a history graduate, unfortunately, since my career path has gone in a different direction (now enrolled at Law School). Still, I really enjoy being able to discuss history and hopefully broaden my knowledge.
 
:sigh:

You know--speaking as an historian--when I read things like this, it just makes me want to cry.
Well, tell me "historian", off hand what else happened in 1066 besides the Norman Invasion?

"Historian"?

Would you like me to post my CV? My class syllabi? A scan of my degree? Links to a few journal articles?

Where do you get off making an insinuation like that, anyway?

You don't know me from Adam. And yet you here you are, casting aspersions on both my professional qualifications, and my honesty?

What do you do for a living, "enlisted person"?

How would you like it if I started passing remarks on your "qualifications" and "honesty"?

I am not an historian but I love and read up on historical things whenever I can. There just is not much out there but when x defeated Y at the battle of Z.

Well, since I happen to have a contract to publish my book with Oxford University Press, let's take a look at their website, and see what kinds of titles we can find in their British & Irish history line:

Donal A Kerr, A Nation of Beggars? Priests, People, and Politics in Famine Ireland, 1846-52 (scoial & religious history)

James Pereiro, 'Ethos' and the Oxford Movement: At the Heart of Tractarianism (church history)

Salahuddin Malik, 1857: War of Independence or Clash of Civilizations? British Public Reactions (cultural history)

Ann Hughes, Gangraena and the Struggle for the English Revolution (intellectual and political history)

Alan Deyermond, A Century of British Medieval Studies (general history)

Donald McKenzie and Maureen Bell (eds.), A Chornology and Calendar of Documents relating to the London Book Trade (3 vols.) (historiography)

J H Burns and H L A Hart, A Comment on the Commentaries and the Fragment on Government (intellectual history)

John Cannon, A Dictionary of British History (reference)

Christopher Harvie, A Floating Commonwealth: Politics, Culture, and Technology on Britain's Atlantic Coast (cultural history & the history of transportation)

David Underdown, A Freeborn People: Politics and the Nation in Seventeenth-Century England (political & cultural history)

Etc.

There's a section on military history too, if that's all that interests you. But clearly, there's a lot more out there than just 'when x defeated Y at the battle of Z'.
Well then, tell us what else happened specifically in the year 1066 besides the Norman Invasion. That is all I asked.
 
Goliath, what period of history do you usually focus on? Best I can say is that I'm a history graduate, unfortunately, since my career path has gone in a different direction (now enrolled at Law School). Still, I really enjoy being able to discuss history and hopefully broaden my knowledge.

My research is focused on modern British and Irish history, with sidelines in intellectual history and historiography.

I actually do military history, ironically enough. I teach an undergraduate course on War & Society in 20th-Century Britain, and a graduate seminar on Europe in the Age of Total War.

But I also teach, for example, a senior seminar on the Philosophical Enlightenment, and the latest book I'm reading is Jonathan Israel's Radical Enlightenment. And I cannot fathom how anyone can still think that history consists of nothing but kings and battles.
 
While each historian gives a different perspective on events, for me, if you want to talk about 1066, you have to start far before it. The history of the Norman invasion was a series of many factors that had been building up for a long time. BTW, I was just writing off the top of my head and my post went a little longer than I anticipated. If you decide to take a TLDR approach, I won't blame you, but you can at least appreciate that there's more to it than the Battle of Hastings. And please don't pick apart my post for individual comments, it'll do all of us a huge disservice considering the length.

Let's look political real quick: Many people like to view 11th century England as being torn between "Europe" (aka France and, by extension, Rome) and "Scandinavia". In many ways, you can see a trend of "Normanization". The social position among many of the elites was changing. Many Normans were given land by the English King in order to ensure his ties to the south. This was very practical because many looked towards the East. Half of England was Danish at one point. In fact, our language wouldn't exist today if it weren't for a linguistic compromise that simplified it. Eventually, the King fled to Normandy, where he apparently promised the Kingdom to William (whom he could have seen as almost a brother for his support). I'm simplifying things a touch because it's a bit more complicated than that, but the history of Normandy, England, and Scandinavia is quite fascinating. You could just focus on someone like Emma and find lots of cool stuff to learn about.

On the continent, there was there was a debate about just what it was to be French. I realize this touches on warfare (it was a brutal time), but many petty Counts and Dukes were in a position of uncertainty when they realized they were stronger than their master, the King of France. In this politically uncertain time, the French King actually was forced to choose to support one vastly powerful vassal over another. He sided against William, which must have been a huge personal shock for him (I believe he had supported the King earlier). But the consequences are that it turned William from a French vassal (where any consequences he made would be under the rule of the French King) to someone who, after a promise for Kingship, believed himself an equal. The personal history of William is, in itself fascinating. He was a man whose father ruled Normandy, but was illegitimate and was always challenged for his Duchy. His father decided to go off to Jerusalem for a pilgrimage (which is a fascinating story in itself. These were men who killed for a living, but felt so guilty about it that they had to do great acts of penance to make up for it). He was always searching for legitimacy and was tenacious in his goals.

Then there's the socioeconomic situation in Normandy at the time, which had experienced a huge population boom because of agricultural success. Is it a coincidence that, for the last 60 years, Normans had been flooding into southern Italy and was defeating the last remnants of Byzantine rule in the area (along with defeating Muslims in Sicily and various Lombard Kingdoms that ruled). Is it a coincidence that they were among the most fervent fighters in the Reconquista in Spain? This is a period where Normandy stretched out and spread their influence across Europe (which is probably what the King of France was worried about earlier).

There's also Papal politics. William got a holy sanction for his actions in England. Some have argued that this was a proto-Crusade. At the very least, you see a Papacy that is strong in Europe (where 100 years earlier, it had been entirely discredited. They were either the person who could bribe the most corrupt Romans, or a direct appointment of the Holy Roman Emperor where the Bishop of Rome served the Empire as the Patriarch of Constantinople did in the east). Then there was a movement to strengthen the Papacy (too complicated to get into). Suffice it to say that, by 1066, the Pope was beginning to have the strength to influence the petty lords who served him in Christiandom. But it was a double edged sword. The next Pope was Gregory VII and he sought to directly challenge the belief of some that the Emperor was above the Pope. But he did so at the expense of all rulers in Europe. William's administration depended on his control over the church in England. There's an interesting Gregory-William battle that mirrors the Investiture Controversy with Germany.

I didn't even mention the government changes and the change of system that made England the best-run monarchy in western Europe. Or you could talk about advances in art and architecture (with art, there's a really interesting debate over the meaning of certain things in the Bayeux Tapestry, such as the use of Aesop's Fables that seem to actually be criticizing Willaim, with architecture, you could always just look at the prolific building of forts/castles in England after the conquest). I haven't even mentioned the working class (and barely mentioned the clergy). Unfortunately, my knowledge of peasant life in England in this period is limited, but I do know that William has left us with one of the most valuable sources to find out (the Domesday Book).

Of course, you mentioned only 1066 (and I assumed Norman Conquest of England as the vantage point). If you want to include the 11th Century as a whole, I recommend one of the best books I've ever read, The Making of the Middle Ages by R.W. Southern. He handles the period from a social, economic, political, and intellectual level far more than he does with warfare (although no discussion would be complete without it). Really an eye opening book for how everything we know today found its roots.

EDIT: For a biography of William, you probably couldn't find a better one than William the Conqueror by David C. Douglas.
Its been 20 years ago but I spent a couple years in england and went to hastings and the village of Battle and I read a lot of books at that time but it just seems to me that when it comes to actual recorded facts of when things happened it mostly had to do with wars, even back in the Roman Britain times. Even farther back with the relief drawings of the Assyrians, it was mostly about wars and who defeated who.
 
Well then, tell us what else happened specifically in the year 1066 besides the Norman Invasion. That is all I asked.

:rolleyes:

As I just explained to Alidar Jarok, I'm not a medievalist. I've never taught a course in medieval history, or even taken a course on the subject in more than twenty years. My specialized knowledge of British history trails off after around 1685.

Asking me to explain what happened in 1066 is like asking a physicist to explain the structure of the DNA molecule. Do you also expect scientists to know about everything in every field of science?
 
Well then, tell us what else happened specifically in the year 1066 besides the Norman Invasion. That is all I asked.

:rolleyes:

As I just explained to Alidar Jarok, I'm not a medievalist. I've never taught a course in medieval history, or even taken a course on the subject in more than twenty years. My specialized knowledge of British history trails off after around 1685.

Asking me to explain what happened in 1066 is like asking a physicist to explain the structure of the DNA molecule. Do you also expect scientists to know about everything in every field of science?
No, I certainly don't. I was just trying to explain my point that without major wars things would have been recorded differently or perhaps not at all. Wars were reference points in lots of the things I have read, but it was not my intention rile up or insult anyone. It was just a thought. Take the important dates in history and remove those dealing with war and it would be a much shorter list, was what I was implying, though maybe I am wrong.
 
Its been 20 years ago but I spent a couple years in england and went to hastings and the village of Battle and I read a lot of books at that time but it just seems to me that when it comes to actual recorded facts of when things happened it mostly had to do with wars, even back in the Roman Britain times. Even farther back with the relief drawings of the Assyrians, it was mostly about wars and who defeated who.

Of course, but for various reasons. One of the key sources for 1066 was William of Poitier, who fought in the battle (so his interest was in glorifying what had happened). But there's another important source that doesn't glorify anything. The Domesday Book was William's attempt to survey the wealth of his new Kingdom, but it gives a basic idea of how people lived. There's also the AngloSaxon Chronicle. The Chronicle definitely mentions battles and people love to repeat them, but it'll also mention something like "goat escaped and ran into the Church, we viewed this as a divine miracle," which gives far more idea of the beliefs of the average person than whether Harold, William, or Harald Hardrada won in 1066.

Roman writers in Britain (we only have a handful) usually wrote to glorify their Uncle (in Tacitus' case) or to take a shot at the Emperor (I think both Tacitus and Cassius Dio do this. Tacitus almost had a "noble savage" belief with the Britons so he really portrays Boudica, for example, in a sympathetic light. Cassius Dio simply didn't like Nero, so he blamed things on him). When writing about Roman Britannia, they tend to do so from a Roman perspective which does mean wars and conquest. When at all possible, they'll also do it to cast some kind of moral judgment on someone so their audience can learn something. What we find out about Roman life has more to do with archeology than the sources (and there really are interesting examples of Roman life intermixing with Celtic life and how they had to try and get along). There's the rise of Camulodunum (Colchester) and Londinium (London) and just a general idea of the economic and social changes happening on an island that was conquered to make one guy look good and was only invaded once before because they were annoying another guy who was conquering people to look good.

As for the Assyrians, their Kings basically believed that they were writing directly to Ashur. In their minds, they wanted to please him through conquest. If you pay attention to Assyrian inscriptions, you'll find times where they don't write much. Based on other sources, you can tell that these were times where they weren't doing so well on the battlefield. There's also indication through some other sources and through archeology of the tremendous impact of unification that Assyria brought to Mesopotamia (even if it created a lot of resentment). Nineveh, for example, was a truly cosmopolitan city (even if some peoples, such as the Israelites and Judeans, despised the city, as the bible makes quite clear).
 
Enlisted Person, one final point. Even when talking about warfare, it's horribly incomplete to not talk about the things surrounding it. Even wars don't exist in a bubble. The impact they have on society, the economy, technological history, intellectual history, etc, were tremendous and deserving of studies in their own right. An example would be the Crusades, which defined the Christian world, brought back math and philosophy, and inspired Castles that we take for granted in Europe.

Goliath, what period of history do you usually focus on? Best I can say is that I'm a history graduate, unfortunately, since my career path has gone in a different direction (now enrolled at Law School). Still, I really enjoy being able to discuss history and hopefully broaden my knowledge.

My research is focused on modern British and Irish history, with sidelines in intellectual history and historiography.

Out of curiosity, what time period would you start "Modern British History" at. I took a class on modern Irish History and the class started in the year 1500 or so (actually, it started with Strongbow and Gerald of Wales, but it quickly shoots ahead to right around the end of the War of the Roses). My Professor had an odd habit of teaching Irish history as if you were looking at the island from Westminster. Still, I learned a lot in the class about the Gallic Revival and Irish cultural traditions (as well as all the famous things that made the Irish suffer that my Grandmother loved talking about when anyone mentioned Orangemen).

But I also teach, for example, a senior seminar on the Philosophical Enlightenment, and the latest book I'm reading is Jonathan Israel's Radical Enlightenment. And I cannot fathom how anyone can still think that history consists of nothing but kings and battles.

Out of curiosity, what is Radical Enlightenment?
 
Out of curiosity, what time period would you start "Modern British History" at.

Around the Revolution of 1688. Whig history aside, I think it really is an important turning point in the history of both islands.

My Professor had an odd habit of teaching Irish history as if you were looking at the island from Westminster.

Yes--it's hard to teach Irish history without having your class turn into a course on "the Irish Question"--that is to say, Ireland's relationship with Britain.

Out of curiosity, what is Radical Enlightenment?

Israel argues--correctly, I think--that there were two general trends in Enlightenment thought: the moderate dualistic, deistic Enlightenment, influenced by Locke and Newton, and typified by Voltaire; and the radical, monistic, atheistic Enlightenment, influenced by Spinoza, and typified by Diderot and d'Holbach.

He also argues that the differences and conflicts between these two camps were just as great as their conflicts with conservatives; and that the origins of modern democratic, republican, secular, human-rights values are to be found in the radical Enlightenment, rather than its moderate counterpart, which (for all its good qualities) was too comfortable with things like monarchy, inequality, and even slavery. Finally, he argues that the radical Enlightenment was essentially written out of history in the 19th century (which also make sense to me, considering that Thomas Reid suffered a similar fate, somewhat later).

Israel has written two massive tomes on the subject, Radical Enlightenment and Enlightenment Contested, and is at work on a third. But if you want a quick introduction to his analysis, you can read A Revolution of the Mind: Radical Enlightenment and the Intellectual Origins of Modern Democracy.
 
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Well, to give evidence to his theory about it being written out of history, I suppose I could point out that I've heard of all of the former names and I don't think I've even heard of the latter. Intellectual history isn't something I directly studied, although I touched on it in a Philosophy class I took (it was more a history of Philosophy, but it had to cover everything from Thales to modern Philosophy, so it obviously didn't have time to cover everyone) and I have a growing appreciation for Medieval and Renaissance (Late-Medieval?) Intellectual thought.

I think the only problem with his theory I can think of is how much of John Locke can be seen in Jefferson's work. But, then again, I don't really have enough knowledge to make an informed opinion on this.
 
Out of curiosity, what time period would you start "Modern British History" at.

Around the Revolution of 1688. Whig history aside, I think it really is an important turning point in the history of both islands.

I would argue that modern British history must start with the adoption of the umbrella, which occured sometime between the mid-1600's and mid-1700's, though the exact date is hard to pin down.
 
I agree that if there had been no wars that technological development would have been greatly slowed and that global culture would be more heterogeneous. Beyond that, it's hard to say, though. Wars have been fought over land, resources and religion, so what was different in this alternate world where there were no wars. Is Human nature different? Are there only small isolated pockets of Humanity on different continents? Are there Alien Overlords that have been enforcing the peace since there were Cro Magnons? The reason for the lack of warfare would really be the defining factor in what life would be like now.
 
I literally assumed some kind of powerful omnipotent force that could prevent people from being physically violent to other people (hence my Organians reference). Presumably, this force would allow some kind of violence for physical coercion to create and enforce laws (unless it acted as legal enforcers as well). In that case, there would be no remedies for inequality of land besides a rush to beat someone else to new land and starvation if that failed. Eventually, we might get the agricultural revolution and help mitigate that to a degree and, of course, there'd always be trade. But it's not guaranteed that the ones with the silver mine is the one with the access to ships is the one with the need of the food in order to make the trade for food from the ones with the excess food. And, depending on the point in history, most mining work was done by slaves (even today, there's some quasi-slavery in areas of the world with gold mines), so they free labor would need higher wages and there's less silver to trade. In addition, the added transaction costs of different entities controlling these various things would limit the efficient trade system and reduce further the amount of food being shipped. Thus, some places would have wasted food and others would starve (unless the people in one area can move to the other area and take some of their property for their own to share this food, which brings up again the law issue as well as a whole bunch of other issues).
 
About 10 years ago, all my interest in history turned to all things nautical because I was "bit by the sailing bug" and bought a sail boat and love sailing. Too think that those frail wooden craft were out on tho open seas and then firing cannons at each other is really unbelievable. It has been said that sailing is like playing chess on a chess board that is always changing. Even Einstein was an avid sailor. I would think that the point in which the British became dominant at sea would be the turning point.
 
Well then, tell us what else happened specifically in the year 1066 besides the Norman Invasion. That is all I asked.

That's a poor example, though, really, since it's so far back that very few people have any idea of what happened in any given year outside of very major events. For instance, can you tell me, off hand...

... what happened in 1215 besides the signing of the Magna Carta?

... what happened in 1453 besides the fall of Constantinople?

... or what happened in 1517 besides Martin Luther writing his 95 Theses?
 
Well then, tell us what else happened specifically in the year 1066 besides the Norman Invasion. That is all I asked.

That's a poor example, though, really, since it's so far back that very few people have any idea of what happened in any given year outside of very major events. For instance, can you tell me, off hand...

... what happened in 1215 besides the signing of the Magna Carta?

... what happened in 1453 besides the fall of Constantinople?

... or what happened in 1517 besides Martin Luther writing his 95 Theses?
Which is kind of my point, lots of the major events were wars and so, like you say only major (I prefer General because that is the higher rank) events got recorded, so how much less would we know about history if not for wars? Magna carta is one of my favorites as I have stood on the sight where it was signed.
 
Well, one of those events wasn't a war, unless Martin Luther sacked some principality I'm unaware of after he finished posting his 95 Theses? There are plenty of other notable events that weren't military events.

1053 - Eastern Schism (one of many breaks between eastern and western churches, but one that is often pointed to as the final break). Now I could point to battles that happened around this time, but most people don't (if this event is in textbooks, they're not going to mention the wars that surround it).

Same with 1076 (Investiture Controversy). Here, the big thing people mention is the Emperor getting excommunicated and then walking to Canossa to be forgiven. Was there fighting involved? Quite a bit, involving German Princes and those always pesky Normans as well as other Italian groups, but it's not the main point of the narrative.

What about 44 BC? That's certainly a famous date when Julius Caesar was assassinated. What else happened that year? Actually, amnesty for all the assassins. The warfare that followed was two years later. Other events in Roman history weren't war related as well. Read the Lives of Plutarch. Sure, there's a Marian or Sulla or Scipio Africanus. But there's also a Cato, Cicero, or the Gracchi Brothers.

This is assuming major big picture events are all you care about. Generally, history is determined by far more than this. Gradual social change (often among the common people, not the upper classes) can be far more important overall. To use an analogy (with World War II so it's a bit more common knowledge), the Battle of Midway is often seen as a turning point in the Pacific. But, the United States also happened to produce more Carriers in 1943 than the Japanese did in the entire war, so turning points happened to be irrelevant. Likewise, quite often in general history, the big event doesn't matter because it was bound to happen anyway (you can point to the rise in totalitarianism in the 1930s to show that, even if Hitler hadn't been born, Germany would have fallen to a totalitarian government).
 
Well, one of those events wasn't a war, unless Martin Luther sacked some principality I'm unaware of after he finished posting his 95 Theses? There are plenty of other notable events that weren't military events.

1053 - Eastern Schism (one of many breaks between eastern and western churches, but one that is often pointed to as the final break). Now I could point to battles that happened around this time, but most people don't (if this event is in textbooks, they're not going to mention the wars that surround it).

Same with 1076 (Investiture Controversy). Here, the big thing people mention is the Emperor getting excommunicated and then walking to Canossa to be forgiven. Was there fighting involved? Quite a bit, involving German Princes and those always pesky Normans as well as other Italian groups, but it's not the main point of the narrative.

What about 44 BC? That's certainly a famous date when Julius Caesar was assassinated. What else happened that year? Actually, amnesty for all the assassins. The warfare that followed was two years later. Other events in Roman history weren't war related as well. Read the Lives of Plutarch. Sure, there's a Marian or Sulla or Scipio Africanus. But there's also a Cato, Cicero, or the Gracchi Brothers.

This is assuming major big picture events are all you care about. Generally, history is determined by far more than this. Gradual social change (often among the common people, not the upper classes) can be far more important overall. To use an analogy (with World War II so it's a bit more common knowledge), the Battle of Midway is often seen as a turning point in the Pacific. But, the United States also happened to produce more Carriers in 1943 than the Japanese did in the entire war, so turning points happened to be irrelevant. Likewise, quite often in general history, the big event doesn't matter because it was bound to happen anyway (you can point to the rise in totalitarianism in the 1930s to show that, even if Hitler hadn't been born, Germany would have fallen to a totalitarian government).
And to your point, one had only to read the Versailles treaty to know that there was going to be a WWII. Wars don't exist in a vacuum but they have cause an effect that can happen over years.
 
Well, I agree, but that's not entirely my point. My point in this case is history is more than the study of big events that connect together in a chain. Sometimes it's helpful just to sit back and take a broad picture of what was happening during that time or a cross section of life at a particular moment. You can often learn more about what was going on that way than you can by saying in 1066, William invaded England.

Take a look around today. You might want to say "In 2001, the US was attacked and then invaded Afghanistan. In 2003, the US invaded Iraq. In 2008, Russia invaded Georgia, in 2009 there were riots regarding the fraudulent election in Iran. Does this accurately describe the world today? I'd much prefer to talk about the rise of interconnectivity. The expansion of broadband networks and smart phones and greater importance of the internet that has allowed people from all over the world to engage in various activities from debating about what the world would be like if there had never been a war on a message board devoted to Star Trek to communicating Revolutionary activities and shaping international opinion in oppressive nations like had never been done before (to connect to that Iranian thing I just mentioned). There's more to today than war or than in a chain of events and I hope that the historian of tomorrow will be able to piece this together as well.
 
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