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If there had been no wars..

Or, for some, a police matter.

It's an intriguing postulate, but eliminating war doesn't necessarily eliminate violence and killing. There are other acts of cruelty like rape and abuse that can be used to coerce without necessarily killing.
 
Life would be boring and overpopulated.

Have you ever lost a Son, Daughter, Brother, Sister, Mother, Father, Aunt, Uncle, Cousin, or a friend to war? I can't imagine anyone who would say this as ever having lost anyone to a war.
I didn't know that a Vulcan might have trouble with someone stating conclusions that are disconcerting. As far as I remember Spock did quite often, driving anyone around him crazy, but I wouldn't expect Sarek himself to become crazy over it.

Life and history as we know it, for good or bad, has been created under the influence of war. Without war it would have been completely different. There's no way to predict how, but I personally find human history as it is quite interesting.

Also the idea that war is awful and we should avoid it is at almost any cost is gaining popularity only recently. And everyone I know seems to apply it only to recent events. When I read history books, I always get the impression that people back then were proud of their wars, and I discovered that even many pacifists perceive those wars as interesting.

War is unacceptable now. But that's because we moved to the point where we want to make life better, and to remove awful things like war from it. Life have changed, people are living better, everything is more peaceful and calm, war has also changed and it is getting more destructive, grim and brutal. In the ancient times people were having a hard time even without the war*, and any war didn't make that big of a difference, it wasn't the disaster one can be now.

Life was brutal* even without war, and if war played a part in making it better, well, maybe it brought more good than bad.

* Life is brutal in many places on the Earth right now, but at least we have dozens where it stopped to be so.
 
We should have a McDonalds in every country. That will prevent future wars.

Yeah, people will then be too fat and too unhealthy to fight.

Apparently, no two countries that have a McDonald's has ever gone to war with one another, so my plan is to build McDonald's in every country.

That's not remotely true. Belgrade had a McDonald's. When the US started bombing Serbia, the population retaliated by burning it down.
 
That's not remotely true. Belgrade had a McDonald's. When the US started bombing Serbia, the population retaliated by burning it down.
One more reason to have McDonald's everywhere. People will have a target of no value to poetically vent their anger on in case of an attack. ;)
 
I didn't know that a Vulcan might have trouble with someone stating conclusions that are disconcerting. As far as I remember Spock did quite often, driving anyone around him crazy, but I wouldn't expect Sarek himself to become crazy over it.

My logic is uncertain where armchair generals are concerned.

Life and history as we know it, for good or bad, has been created under the influence of war. Without war it would have been completely different. There's no way to predict how, but I personally find human history as it is quite interesting.

Also the idea that war is awful and we should avoid it is at almost any cost is gaining popularity only recently. And everyone I know seems to apply it only to recent events. When I read history books, I always get the impression that people back then were proud of their wars, and I discovered that even many pacifists perceive those wars as interesting.

War is unacceptable now. But that's because we moved to the point where we want to make life better, and to remove awful things like war from it. Life have changed, people are living better, everything is more peaceful and calm, war has also changed and it is getting more destructive, grim and brutal. In the ancient times people were having a hard time even without the war*, and any war didn't make that big of a difference, it wasn't the disaster one can be now.

Life was brutal* even without war, and if war played a part in making it better, well, maybe it brought more good than bad.

* Life is brutal in many places on the Earth right now, but at least we have dozens where it stopped to be so.

Indeed.

Yeah, people will then be too fat and too unhealthy to fight.

Apparently, no two countries that have a McDonald's has ever gone to war with one another, so my plan is to build McDonald's in every country.

That's not remotely true. Belgrade had a McDonald's. When the US started bombing Serbia, the population retaliated by burning it down.

Well, I did use the CYA method of saying "apparently". :D
Yeah, I figured on some level it couldn't be true. You can't ascribe that amount of good to someone like McDonald's anyway. The universe just couldn't handle it. ;)
 
It's the same myth as the one about two democratic nations never fighting each other. The simple fact is that people fight wars with each other (warfare is actually more common in tribal settings than between organized states).
 
Bedouin proverb:

I against my brother;
I and my brother against our cousin;
I, my brother and our cousin against our neighbor;
All of us against the foreigner.
 
Imagine all the people livin life in peace.....
Peace is one abused word. The French lived in peace under Hitler after they surrendered, but peace at what cost? One should never be willing to live in peace at the expense of liberty or freedom IMHO.

^who put conditions on the peace?

Actually, without wars the current world population would be about one billion because of raids between villages. The other five billion would be dead or would never have been born.

I would say that these raids fall under the "war" heading.
 
Peace is one abused word. The French lived in peace under Hitler after they surrendered, but peace at what cost?

- Armed German troops everywhere.
- Constant arrests of civilians.
- Harsh taxation to pay for the German occupation army.
- Frequent bombings taking a toll on French civilians.
- Tens of thousands of French soldiers in POW camps.
- 90,000 French Jews exterminated and hundreds of thousands suffering in concentration camps.
- Forced labor.
- Curfew.
- Constant starvation (resulting in many deaths) and extreme shortages of all necessary goods and services.
- Forced relocation of thousands to factories and outposts in Germany which were Allied bombing targets.
- Rampant destruction of French infrastructure and buildings.
etc. etc. etc.

By what metric do you consider that "living in peace"?
 
If you look at history its mostly about wars.

:sigh:

You know--speaking as an historian--when I read things like this, it just makes me want to cry.

Yeah, I agree. Warfare has always existed, but it certainly isn't all that happened.

To give an example. During Italy in the 14th to 16th centuries, warfare was an endemic problem. Certainly, you couldn't be a citizen of a state without being concerned with who you'll be fighting soon. At the same time, the artistic achievement of the era was amazing (this is the Renaissance, afterall), the role of society was changing (the fact that I mentioned citizen and state should give a clue. Communes and political involvement of a larger portion of the population was beginning to happen. Cities formed their own strong governments and enforced law. Merchant classes expanded). Intellectual history was changed in this period (knowledge of the world and the past was expanding, people began to have new ideas about the nature of the world and of God and the church). Profound cultural changes took place (Dante and Petrarch more or less established the Italian language, for starters).

And, of course, there was constant warfare and alliances between states so Milan, Florence, Venice, the Kingdom of Two Sicilies, France, Germany, Spain, the Pope, and a whole bunch of other powers could fight and annex territory from each other. All depends on your perspective. I could do the same with the 11th Century and I think the only thing most people know from that period are Duke William the bastard invading England and fighting King Harold II and Emperor Henry IV invading Rome and fighting the Bishop of Rome, Hildebrand (or Pope Gregory VII leader of the one holy universal church, once again depending on your perspective).
 
Peace is one abused word. The French lived in peace under Hitler after they surrendered, but peace at what cost?

- Armed German troops everywhere.
- Constant arrests of civilians.
- Harsh taxation to pay for the German occupation army.
- Frequent bombings taking a toll on French civilians.
- Tens of thousands of French soldiers in POW camps.
- 90,000 French Jews exterminated and hundreds of thousands suffering in concentration camps.
- Forced labor.
- Curfew.
- Constant starvation (resulting in many deaths) and extreme shortages of all necessary goods and services.
- Forced relocation of thousands to factories and outposts in Germany which were Allied bombing targets.
- Rampant destruction of French infrastructure and buildings.
etc. etc. etc.

By what metric do you consider that "living in peace"?
Germany and France were no longer at war with each other. Peace is the absence of war. All those things you listed are the price of peace. Peace at any cost means slavery.
 
If you look at history its mostly about wars.

:sigh:

You know--speaking as an historian--when I read things like this, it just makes me want to cry.
Well, tell me "historian", off hand what else happened in 1066 besides the Norman Invasion? I am not an historian but I love and read up on historical things whenever I can. There just is not much out there but when x defeated Y at the battle of Z. I don't mean this in a bad way. I know there were other things that made history and got recorded, but war was the big show and got written down.
 
While each historian gives a different perspective on events, for me, if you want to talk about 1066, you have to start far before it. The history of the Norman invasion was a series of many factors that had been building up for a long time. BTW, I was just writing off the top of my head and my post went a little longer than I anticipated. If you decide to take a TLDR approach, I won't blame you, but you can at least appreciate that there's more to it than the Battle of Hastings. And please don't pick apart my post for individual comments, it'll do all of us a huge disservice considering the length.

Let's look political real quick: Many people like to view 11th century England as being torn between "Europe" (aka France and, by extension, Rome) and "Scandinavia". In many ways, you can see a trend of "Normanization". The social position among many of the elites was changing. Many Normans were given land by the English King in order to ensure his ties to the south. This was very practical because many looked towards the East. Half of England was Danish at one point. In fact, our language wouldn't exist today if it weren't for a linguistic compromise that simplified it. Eventually, the King fled to Normandy, where he apparently promised the Kingdom to William (whom he could have seen as almost a brother for his support). I'm simplifying things a touch because it's a bit more complicated than that, but the history of Normandy, England, and Scandinavia is quite fascinating. You could just focus on someone like Emma and find lots of cool stuff to learn about.

On the continent, there was there was a debate about just what it was to be French. I realize this touches on warfare (it was a brutal time), but many petty Counts and Dukes were in a position of uncertainty when they realized they were stronger than their master, the King of France. In this politically uncertain time, the French King actually was forced to choose to support one vastly powerful vassal over another. He sided against William, which must have been a huge personal shock for him (I believe he had supported the King earlier). But the consequences are that it turned William from a French vassal (where any consequences he made would be under the rule of the French King) to someone who, after a promise for Kingship, believed himself an equal. The personal history of William is, in itself fascinating. He was a man whose father ruled Normandy, but was illegitimate and was always challenged for his Duchy. His father decided to go off to Jerusalem for a pilgrimage (which is a fascinating story in itself. These were men who killed for a living, but felt so guilty about it that they had to do great acts of penance to make up for it). He was always searching for legitimacy and was tenacious in his goals.

Then there's the socioeconomic situation in Normandy at the time, which had experienced a huge population boom because of agricultural success. Is it a coincidence that, for the last 60 years, Normans had been flooding into southern Italy and was defeating the last remnants of Byzantine rule in the area (along with defeating Muslims in Sicily and various Lombard Kingdoms that ruled). Is it a coincidence that they were among the most fervent fighters in the Reconquista in Spain? This is a period where Normandy stretched out and spread their influence across Europe (which is probably what the King of France was worried about earlier).

There's also Papal politics. William got a holy sanction for his actions in England. Some have argued that this was a proto-Crusade. At the very least, you see a Papacy that is strong in Europe (where 100 years earlier, it had been entirely discredited. They were either the person who could bribe the most corrupt Romans, or a direct appointment of the Holy Roman Emperor where the Bishop of Rome served the Empire as the Patriarch of Constantinople did in the east). Then there was a movement to strengthen the Papacy (too complicated to get into). Suffice it to say that, by 1066, the Pope was beginning to have the strength to influence the petty lords who served him in Christiandom. But it was a double edged sword. The next Pope was Gregory VII and he sought to directly challenge the belief of some that the Emperor was above the Pope. But he did so at the expense of all rulers in Europe. William's administration depended on his control over the church in England. There's an interesting Gregory-William battle that mirrors the Investiture Controversy with Germany.

I didn't even mention the government changes and the change of system that made England the best-run monarchy in western Europe. Or you could talk about advances in art and architecture (with art, there's a really interesting debate over the meaning of certain things in the Bayeux Tapestry, such as the use of Aesop's Fables that seem to actually be criticizing Willaim, with architecture, you could always just look at the prolific building of forts/castles in England after the conquest). I haven't even mentioned the working class (and barely mentioned the clergy). Unfortunately, my knowledge of peasant life in England in this period is limited, but I do know that William has left us with one of the most valuable sources to find out (the Domesday Book).

Of course, you mentioned only 1066 (and I assumed Norman Conquest of England as the vantage point). If you want to include the 11th Century as a whole, I recommend one of the best books I've ever read, The Making of the Middle Ages by R.W. Southern. He handles the period from a social, economic, political, and intellectual level far more than he does with warfare (although no discussion would be complete without it). Really an eye opening book for how everything we know today found its roots.

EDIT: For a biography of William, you probably couldn't find a better one than William the Conqueror by David C. Douglas.
 
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