If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Recast

[martok2112]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Probably...but if I can open one mind....

What's the old saying? "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

People have given many great resources, no one can make anyone actually take time to examine them.

Or as a little kid so wisely put it one time:

"You can lead a horse to water....but why?"

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

You know what? I changed my mind. Deleted.

 

[Overgeeked]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Sorry, I know dog-piles around here can be soo much fun, but...

Well given that anime is seen as a purely children's medium in Japan...

Nope. The Japanese view anime as a geek-thing, not a children's-thing. Lots of people watch anime in Japan and a whole lot more read manga.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Probably...but if I can open one mind....

What's the old saying? "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

People have given many great resources, no one can make anyone actually take time to examine them.

I prefer Heinlein's version from Starship Troopers:

"One can lead a child to knowledge but you cannot make him think."

It is rather interesting to me, the amount of information that is available in the contemporary world. I often have to search through databases as part of my schooling and the sheer number of articles and periodicals that are available is overwhelming.

People often lambast ignorance but given the demands it takes some times to learn even some basic information, I can't always fault people for it.

I think Star Trek labors under several popular notions and preconceived ideas that have formed in to urban legends, such as the first interracial kiss, and the like. Having read Shatner's Star Trek memories, and one other book, it certainly was eye opening for me to see the information given, but I realize it may not have made it out to the general public, and urban legends can linger forever.

 

[BillJ]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Sorry, I know dog-piles around here can be soo much fun, but...

Well given that anime is seen as a purely children's medium in Japan...

Nope. The Japanese view anime as a geek-thing, not a children's-thing. Lots of people watch anime in Japan and a whole lot more read manga.

Not to go back to Space Battleship Yamato, but they did a live-action film which turned out pretty damned good.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vj5g5CrIpA[/yt]

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I don't know if ignorance in itself is a problem, so much as a refusal to acknowledge your own ignorance.

The first just leads to further learning. I certainly believed a lot of the urban legends when I first got into Star Trek, but that inspired conversations like this where I ended up learning (or getting motivated to further research) a lot of stuff I never would have known otherwise. Not exactly a lot of focus over here on 'the development of race relations in American television during the 60's'

They had the reasonably okay live-actions adaptations of Death Note on SBS last night. Regardless of the funky looking death God, it's decidedly not for kids. Now if only they'd do a live action version of Overfiend...

 

[eyeresist]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Probably...but if I can open one mind....

What's the old saying? "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Dorothy Parker said something similar.

One more for the ignore list.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I don't know if ignorance in itself is a problem, so much as a refusal to acknowledge your own ignorance.

The first just leads to further learning. I certainly believed a lot of the urban legends when I first got into Star Trek, but that inspired conversations like this where I ended up learning (or getting inspired to further research) a lot of other stuff I never would have known otherwise. Not exactly a lot of focus over here on 'the development of race relations in American television during the 60's'

They had the reasonably okay live-actions adaptations of Death Note on SBS last night. Regardless of the funky looking death God, it's decidedly not for kids. Now if only they'd do a live action version of Overfiend...

"When the legend becomes fact. Print the legend. "- The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I love that movie. Now there's something that was doing a bit of 'commenting on the human condition.'

To bring us waaaay back to the OP, I wouldn't mind a bit more of the TOS Western influences to come back. I thought they got a bit lost by TNG, and that's not really something I'd like to see happen again.

So long as it's the good Western influences and less... the drekkier episodes of Bonanza. Though I think something like The Searchers IN SPACE! might be a bit dark for most Trekkies.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I love that movie. Now there's something that was doing a bit of 'commenting on the human condition.'

To bring us waaaay back to the OP, I wouldn't mind a bit more of the TOS Western influences to come back. I thought they got a bit lost by TNG, and that's not really something I'd like to see happen again.

So long as it's the good Western influences and less... the drekkier episodes of Bonanza. Though I think something like The Searchers IN SPACE! might be a bit dark for most Trekkies.

Yes, please!

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Star Trek: The Good, The Bad, and The

 

[T'Girl]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Um...The Original Series had [snip] a black woman on the helm of a military vessel.

At one point Uhura takes the navigators station, is that what you're thinking of?

There was never a black woman at the helm during TOS, although Yeoman Rand (a white woman) did take the helm once.

Just how "publicized and controversial" was it at the time? I'm curious because most accounts seem to be after the fact.

A small number of local stations in the south-east initially wouldn't run the episode.

You do realize that the MLK story has grown in the telling over thr years as well. From "what would Martin do?" to "Martin called me" to "Martin told me in person".

And let's not forget how Martin showed up at the studio and personally directed Nichelle in a few scenes.

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

The BBC yanked Plato's Stepchildren from reruns, but that was because of the torture scenes. Besides IMDB, I can't find any other sources saying stations actually did refuse to air it. That's not to say that some didn't, but it doesn't seem to have been that big of a deal.

Shatner and Nichols books just say that NBC were simply concerned during production because of some past experiences. When it did actually go to air, apparently most of the response was positive.

Which I find a little funny, because I personally find that episode horrible. The only thing that I really liked about it was Alexander. The concept was okay, but the execution was bad.

 

[BillJ]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

There was never a black woman at the helm during TOS, although Yeoman Rand (a white woman) did take the helm once.

There's also Lieutenant Rahda from "That Which Survives".

 

[Mk_Sn]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I'm sure Greg Morris, Bill Cosby, Ivan Dixon and Cicely Tyson would be glad to know they are crackers. And Robert Clary and Richard Dawson are apparently Americans. That was in response the wiki you linked to that mentioned international casts. Ivan Dixon and Kenneth Washington are black. Their presence as regulars makes the cast interracial. Banner, Clary and Klemperer are Jewish. So that might count too.

Um..wasn't it said multi-racial, not a token "non-white" person which apparently includes white people from outside the US now (Shatner is Canadian :P does he count)?

No one said the show was the first to have non-white people in it, the first to feature a whole cast of them prominently. Your list is abritrary and lifted from five minutes of google research :P There's a reason these shows, most of which I hadn't even heard of until now, are totally forgotten.

Both stories predate CNN and Wikipedia by decades. So linking to them doesn't say much. I'd like to see contemporary accounts. You know, from the 1960s

Give me some evidence it's not the case, because everyone else is saying it is. You saying "I was there" or "Nu uh" doesn't count, sorry :/ I'm open to evidence to the contrary obviously, I'm not emotionally invested in this, but you'll have to give me more than "no". I'm not sure how a brainless film like Into Darkness turned into some weird fanboy attempt to make all of Star Trek "dumb". It's really weird.

At one point Uhura takes the navigators station, is that what you're thinking of?

A black woman being a prominent officer on a military vessel and not a servant was a pretty big thing.

And let's not forget how Martin showed up at the studio and personally directed Nichelle in a few scenes.

Wat

It's kind of weird how people are trying to rewrite history to make a new movie look less stupid, because it doesn't even if this were all true. Into Darkness will always be "Into Dumbness".

 

[BillJ]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

A black woman being a prominent officer on a military vessel and not a servant was a pretty big thing.

But she really wasn't a "prominent" officer. She barely had any lines in the shows beyond "hailing frequencies open". I know Bill Cosby was considered a star on I, Spy, not a bit player.

There was nothing that made her prominent and stand out from Alden or Palmer or any other Enterprise communications officer. Honestly, if anyone qualified as a "token" it was Nichols as Lieutenant Uhura.

I like Nichols but I think people are trying to rewrite history to make her more important to the show than she really was.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Um..wasn't it said multi-racial, not a token "non-white" person

Greg Morris, Bill Cosby and Ivan Dixon were major characters in tyheir respective series, and hardly token. Bill Cosby and Robert Culp were equal co-stars in I Spy.

There's a reason these shows, most of which I hadn't even heard of until now, are totally forgotten

Mission Impossible and Hogan's Heroes are "forgotten?"

Give me some evidence

Netflix carries these shows, feel free to examine the evidense.

Um...The Original Series had [snip] a black woman on the helm of a military vessel

At one point Uhura takes the navigators station, is that what you're thinking of?

A black woman being a prominent officer on a military vessel and not a servant was a pretty big thing.

Excuse me but that's not what you claimed. Your statement was that a black woman was "on the helm." When sir was there a black woman on the helm?

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

I'm sure Greg Morris, Bill Cosby, Ivan Dixon and Cicely Tyson would be glad to know they are crackers. And Robert Clary and Richard Dawson are apparently Americans. That was in response the wiki you linked to that mentioned international casts. Ivan Dixon and Kenneth Washington are black. Their presence as regulars makes the cast interracial. Banner, Clary and Klemperer are Jewish. So that might count too.

Um..wasn't it said multi-racial, not a token "non-white" person which apparently includes white people from outside the US now (Shatner is Canadian :P does he count)?

No one said the show was the first to have non-white people in it, the first to feature a whole cast of them prominently. Your list is abritrary and lifted from five minutes of google research :P There's a reason these shows, most of which I hadn't even heard of until now, are totally forgotten.

Both stories predate CNN and Wikipedia by decades. So linking to them doesn't say much. I'd like to see contemporary accounts. You know, from the 1960s

Give me some evidence it's not the case, because everyone else is saying it is. You saying "I was there" or "Nu uh" doesn't count, sorry :/ I'm open to evidence to the contrary obviously, I'm not emotionally invested in this, but you'll have to give me more than "no". I'm not sure how a brainless film like Into Darkness turned into some weird fanboy attempt to make all of Star Trek "dumb". It's really weird.

At one point Uhura takes the navigators station, is that what you're thinking of?

A black woman being a prominent officer on a military vessel and not a servant was a pretty big thing.

And let's not forget how Martin showed up at the studio and personally directed Nichelle in a few scenes.

Wat

It's kind of weird how people are trying to rewrite history to make a new movie look less stupid, because it doesn't even if this were all true. Into Darkness will always be "Into Dumbness".

When studying history (or science...or anything really), some sources of information are more valuable than others. Contemporary sources sit at the top of the pile, followed by the information being repeatable (more than one source reaches the same result).

People have put a lot of effort into collecting every memo, interview and scrap of information put out about Star Trek, and there's just no evidence rhat those stations refused to air the episode due to racism. No mention from the people who were there making it, nor from reports, documents, ratings etc. That supports our claim - that there's no real evidence that the event ever happened. If you're claiming that it did, then its on you to find verifiable sources that prove it - sources that themselves can't be dismissed with 'source please?'

I did work experience with entertainment reporters. I was 15, hadn't even finished high school yet, they got me to do the research, and all that involved was looking up attention-grabbing crap on the Internet. No verification, No validation, no nothing. Only one of the things I passed on ended up panning out, and that's because I got it from a press release that the person under discussion had put out themselves. Those links you connected to don't source their claims, which makes them the ones you should be demanding proof from.


However, I can provide an absolute assload of evidence that Gene Roddenberry was a liar, prone to villainizing others to make himself and the show look better. All the actors books mention incidents, the claims he made about Ellison somehow made Gene 'out arsehole' sci-fi's biggest arsehole, Inside Star Trek has both research by the author and actual first hand sources (memos) that show his later claims regarding the studio were lies etc.

I think we've moved a bit beyond STID now. I'd personally list all this propaganda-ish BS as something I don't want to see in the future Trek. I want to enjoy Star Trek, not have some show runner spend the next 50 years trying to convince me I should be in awe of it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Um..wasn't it said multi-racial, not a token "non-white" person which apparently includes white people from outside the US now (Shatner is Canadian :P does he count)?

No one said the show was the first to have non-white people in it, the first to feature a whole cast of them prominently. Your list is abritrary and lifted from five minutes of google research :P There's a reason these shows, most of which I hadn't even heard of until now, are totally forgotten.

Sorry but two actors in minor roles does not equal "prominent". As T'Girl pointed out Dixon, Morris and especially Cosby were in roles much more prominent than Nichols and Takei. Cosby won three Emmy awards for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama Series for his role.

From the wiki you linked

Earlier British science fiction shows with marionettes[4] and soap operas[5] had interracial casting, but this was the first American live-action series to do this.

I've shown this to be patently false.

I didn't have to spend time googling because I actually watched I Spy, Hogan's Heroes and Mission Impossible when I was kid. Hogan's Heroes and Mission Impossible were among my favorite shows. All three were more successful than Star Trek was in the 60s. Mission Impossible is currently a movie franchise starring Tom Cruise, Ving Rhames and Simon Pegg. It's fifth film comes out in July and a sixth one is being planned. The I Spy film starring Eddie Murphy and Owen Wilson wasn't quite as successful. Hogan's Heroes is a property that has also attracted the attention of filmmakers, including Russell Crowe. So hardly "totally forgotten".

As for your second point. Again from your wiki, which I clearly mentioned I was referencing when talking about non American roles in American TV shows.

At a time when there were few non-white or foreign roles in American television dramas,

 

[Trekkin]

Re: If Star Trek Beyond Is The Last Film Should They Start NuTNG or Re

Man from UNCLE also beat them to the 'Russian lead during the Cold War' thing. Not 'supporting character', actual bona-fied 'lead.' Double points for Illya actually being a soldier in the Russian army, and his nationality not being played for a gag 98% of the time.

Hogans Heroes is pretty hammered into pop culture. Most people would probably recognise Klink if they saw him, even if it's just from Simpsons references etc. Oh, and I didn't watch these series the first time around . I was too young and too not American. But somehow Ive still managed to watch at least a few episodes if each.

The Green Hornet aired around the same time as TOS. Kato was the sidekick, but he's the only character besides Britt that can make a claim for 'lead.' The rest of the cast were more supporting characters. It's ancestor 'The Lone Ranger' was a decade older again, and really did have only two main characters. Anyone care to guess the ethnicity of Jay Silverheels?