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If Not Sisko, Then Who?

^Anwar, JustKate: I'm on your frequency! DSN was a little grimmer than TNG, but it was still a hopeful show. Like when the supergeniuses suggest the Federation has no hope of beating the Dominion and should surrender to save billions, and Bashir helps prove the random factor of chance means anything is possible. -- RR
 
^ :beer:

There, Anwar. A toast to sarcasm.
You dudes are old-fashioned. Of course, they still should've won in the end, but they flinched on a few important points:
1)instead of having them lay waste to Earth, having the Breen succeed only in knocking down a decorative bridge;
2)pushing Dukat into cartoonish supervillainy instead of his far more compelling Space National Socialism; and
3)totally playing off the fact that ultimate victory could not have been acheived without an extralegal faction within the Federation, committing genocide through biological weapons.

Hey, maybe I shouldn't complain: the message is subtle but there--completely exterminating an enemy works (but it's not nice).:p

Embrace the grittiness. Just as Alan Moore before him, Ronald Moore has made all other types of storytelling obsolete. I'd wonder if Ron Moore worshipped a snake god too,
but presumably it would've shown up in the last forty-five minutes of the mess he made of Battlestar Galactica.
Yes, I'm being mildly sarcastic, but I tend to like to see a certain streak of darkness in my fiction.

Edit: at the same time, I'm deeply wary of
destroying planets other than Earth, but mainly because it precludes learning anything further about them. I know what Earth is like, and can imagine what it's like in the future. Vulcan and Romulus are apparently gone forever following the new movie, and I'm not sure what to make of that.
 
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1) What would've been the point? It was just a raid intended to damage Fed morale. No way the Breen could've gotten enough forced to Earth to really ravage it without Starfleet or the planetary defenses stopping them.

2) After all he went through, going insane WAS justified for Dukat. And plus you have the Pagh Wraith possession as an excuse as to further insane actions.

3) I'd say the message was that thanks to them NOT being willing to go through with genocide more loss of life was prevented. With the Founders all dead the Jem'Hadar likely would have gone out of control and rampaged all over the place in both the Gamma and Alpha Quadrants. Peace and tolerance > Heartless annihilation.

As for being "old-fashioned", I take that as a compliment. Heck, Alan Moore himself was rather upset when he saw how so many embraced the darkness from works he did like "Killing Joke" and "Watchmen" that he created new lines of comics that openly embraced the wacky 60s fun and proved that with a little intelligent those kinds of stories and tones could be just as enjoyable today as they ever were.

So no, I don't think that darker storytelling = instant win. Quite the opposite, I see it as a fad that's losing it's touch.
 
I'm OK with a "streak" of darkness and some "grittiness," and DS9 had that, as Red Ranger notes. Lots of great and generally positive pieces of fiction do - Lord of the Rings, for example, and even The Chronicles of Narnia. Most of them probably do, at least on some level. (Heck, even in Mary Poppins, Mary goes away in the end. ;) And Christopher Robin eventually leaves the Hundred Acre Wood and goes away to school. Really.)

But I don't want the darkness to win. And if too many people die and all that's left is rubble and destruction and the certainty of even more death, that's not a particularly satisfying victory. It may in fact not be a victory at all, but just another way to lose.

A dark book or movie might be OK if it has other things going for it, and the reason is...it's one book or one movie. But for me, a television show or other long piece of fiction has to have something positive about it. Otherwise, it's just too dreary and whatever else it has that's enjoyable, illuminating or thought-provoking is lost in the dreariness. If I want to read about or watch death and destruction with little reason to hope, all I have to do is look at parts of our very own planet Earth. What I want in my fiction is to see people overcome and triumph, even if the cost is high. And if that's old-fashioned, so be it. Let's toast that, too, Anwar!
 
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I'm with you, JustKate. People need to remember that it's not bad writing to have trials and hardships be REWARDED for going through all the bad stuff.
 
1) What would've been the point? It was just a raid intended to damage Fed morale. No way the Breen could've gotten enough forced to Earth to really ravage it without Starfleet or the planetary defenses stopping them.

2) After all he went through, going insane WAS justified for Dukat. And plus you have the Pagh Wraith possession as an excuse as to further insane actions.

3) I'd say the message was that thanks to them NOT being willing to go through with genocide more loss of life was prevented. With the Founders all dead the Jem'Hadar likely would have gone out of control and rampaged all over the place in both the Gamma and Alpha Quadrants. Peace and tolerance > Heartless annihilation.

As for being "old-fashioned", I take that as a compliment. Heck, Alan Moore himself was rather upset when he saw how so many embraced the darkness from works he did like "Killing Joke" and "Watchmen" that he created new lines of comics that openly embraced the wacky 60s fun and proved that with a little intelligent those kinds of stories and tones could be just as enjoyable today as they ever were.

So no, I don't think that darker storytelling = instant win. Quite the opposite, I see it as a fad that's losing it's touch.

Of course, I was being a bit facetious--I know Alan Moore had deep regrets about the trend he began. And I'm on (rather ubiqitous) record as hating what BSG ultimately degenerated into.

At any rate, the "darkness" I look for isn't so much in the destruction itself, but the implications that naturally arise from events not being shied away from. Alan Moore generally dealt with those implications, no matter how unpleasant, much better than his peers, and that is part of why he became something like a comic book god. The other part, maybe even the more important part, is of course the revolution in technique he was a part of, but that's not relevant here.

As an example of a failure to deal with natural implications of events, let's take TOS--in that show, tons of people die, even whole systems and civilizations are routinely prostrated and even annihilated, and half the time they laugh it off, because the death and destruction is just a plot device.

DS9 took bold steps toward actually recognizing the implications of things, but, like I said, took easier but less reasonable ways out on occasion. Usually, they didn't. I don't need Earth blown up, I just think it seems more reasonable (why no energy dampening weapon? why a suicide attack if it caused no real damage, to one planet amongst 150? why did the Breen even join the war?).

BSG tried to do that and failed because they got their heads lost up their asses, but I have a fervent respect for the attempt.

And to respond specifically to one thing:

I'd say the message was that thanks to them NOT being willing to go through with genocide more loss of life was prevented. With the Founders all dead the Jem'Hadar likely would have gone out of control and rampaged all over the place in both the Gamma and Alpha Quadrants. Peace and tolerance > Heartless annihilation.
Carrot and stick. The Founders probably never would have negotiated if they weren't facing extinction. Just as some say that the Japanese would have remained defiant in the absence of the atomic bomb.*

*This is a heatedly controversial issue which I use for illustration purposes only. I'm fully aware of other explanations of events, particularly the one which places the greatest weight on the Soviet entry into the war.

Finally, of course, I meant the "old-fashioned" comment in good fun. :)
 
The Founders weren't going to negotiate even when infected. They only agreed to negotiations when they realized (thanks to Odo giving the Female Founder the cure) that the Feds WEREN'T all out to wipe them out and even despite the war would've set things in motion to cure them.

As for the Breen, like I said it was a morale attack. They knew they couldn't take Earth on their own and the defenses were too tough but they wanted to weaken Fed morale by trashing at least some of their planet. There are precedents for such a thing in real life.

As for Moore, he's a comic god for more than just "Watchmen", basically he just added more depth and intelligence to the wackier ways comics were written back then (the more super-out of this world ones anyways). It wasn't the darkness, just the depth. That can be applied to dark and light-themed stories.

As for "old-fashioned", well let's not forget: those "old-fashioned" types are what we came from. We owe them respect for THAT.
 
Not me. I sprang to life fully formed, standing in a clamshell, protecting my modesty with my ridiculously long and beautiful hair.

Re: Moore. I agree. I don't think I've ever read a Moore comic I didn't like. Tom Strong came close though, a little too light--as in not heavy, density-wise, not light/dark like we're discussing. Promethea wasn't dark at all (generally), in fact it was hopeful and radiant, but of course it was fantastic (if you, as I definitely did, enjoyed being lectured in sequential art form about magic for a dozen issues:p).

Re: Breen. That's true. The Breen attack on Earth kind of reminds me of the V2 attacks on Britain: practically pointless.

Re: Founders. That's an interesting interpretation of that. It's valid, but I'm not sure I concur.
 
You know, I could see Kira being the station commander and the Emissary under two conditions. First, in another quantum reality, one in which she and her family were smuggled off Bajor during the Occupation, brought up in the Federation, becomes one of the first Bajorans to enter Starfleet, then requests assignment on DSN to help her home adjust after the Cardassians leave. I can also see the Bajorans accepting her even more readily as the Emissary since she's Bajoran.

Second, perhaps the Bajorans insist the station commander be Bajoran, so the job goes to Kira and Starfleet insists that if they're going to adminster, the first officer must be from Starfleet. Sisko never goes to DSN and quits Starfleet as he was planning to before being assigned to DSN.

It certainly would've been a different show with Kira as the lead.

Red Ranger
 
I dunno, I think the whole idea of the Emissary not being from Bajor and in fact being someone who was pretty much against the idea works better for the dynamic.

Hell, I wonder how Picard himself would have dealt with the fact that their "Gods" existed and had chosen HIM as their Emissary. He'd be dealing with a religion with a basis in fact, and that if he DID reject his role he KNEW he'd only be doing more damage.
 
^ Did she really need "redemption" from that? It's not quite along the lines of Sisko and his great personal tragedy or Odo recovering from being treated as a freak show, is it? Maybe I'm underestimating it.

True, I may have subconsciously read too much into your last sentence of your original post.
She may have felt an undeserved sense of guilt for not stopping the Borg attack earlier but I don't know the characters history very well.

The same would apply to Edward Jellico, the only thing that I've got his the familial guilt over his ancestor of some 400 years ago a corrupt US senator called Kinsey;).

Wonder if anyone will ever tell starfleet about the stargate program?
 
A clone of Weyoun who somehow got trapped in the alpha quadrant with no knowledge of the dominion 30 years before the wormhole!
 
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