If Money is not a driving force for the federation, what would actually work to replace this....

[Odo]

I am trying to recall the bar scene in the Star Trek 2009 movie, now Kirk wanted to buy Uhura a drink, if money does not exist the drinks would be free, why would a male use one of the oldest pick up actions i.e offering to buy someone (a female) a drink, if the drinks are free?

I agree that money definitely exists in TOS era, and think that it seems to lessen in importance in the TNG/DS9 era.

But in that scene in Trek ‘09, I feel like it could just be an old saying used for that occasion (“Buy you a drink.” could just mean “Get you a drink.”, with the connotation of flirtation.) Or it could literally mean buying someone a drink.

I say this because we still use phrases in different languages today to connote a specific meaning without understanding the origin of that phrase. For example, I’ve said “Break a leg!” without understanding where that term comes from historically.

But yeah, money still exists in TOS.

 

[Deks]

I am trying to recall the bar scene in the Star Trek 2009 movie, now Kirk wanted to buy Uhura a drink, if money does not exist the drinks would be free, why would a male use one of the oldest pick up actions i.e offering to buy someone (a female) a drink, if the drinks are free?

Riker also wanted to 'buy' Mariner a drink on ST: Lower Decks, and she promptly pointed out to him they don't use money.

Kirk said the same thing in ST:IV.
Picard said the same on TNG.
Jake mentioned in on DS9
Janeway even mentioned she's not used to dealing with currency and had real issues handling it.

That doesn't strike me as an organisation that uses money in everyday life (and Federation credits were mentioned on 2 separate occasions... in the pilot of TNG by dr Crusher and once in TOS perhaps - both occasions when dealing with non-aligned species).

Why would Federation credits exist in that case?
Probably because the Federation is a huge and recognized organisation which other non-aligned species in Alpha and Beta quadrants might perceive as relevant and powerful... so the Federation credits MIGHT be used with some of them, but generally speaking, the Federation sooner engages in trade/barter with other species.

In the absence of actually SEEING use of money/transactions (which is fairly evident throughout Trek for Federation citizens), its more likely people use the term 'buy you a drink' as a means of 'breaking the ice' and strike up a conversation with the person in question.. but it wouldn't literally mean they'd use money/currency to get the drinks (they would likely just go to the bar and request the beverages in question which would be provided to them and everyone else for free).

We've also seen people in Trek using today's terms such as 'penny/isik for your thoughts?'... and with characters asking 'what's a penny/isik?'.
My point is that just because the characters use terms real life humans are familiar with... they shouldn't be taken LITERALLY.

 

[Nyotarules]

Janeway even mentioned she's not used to dealing with currency and had real issues handling it.

I'm not used to dealing with currency either, I just tap my phone on a machine lol
TOS Federation credits seems more a thing , Uhura bought a tribble on a Federation station from I assume a fellow human, if money was not the norm they would not be bartering about the cost.
There is a line where Spock tells Kirk how much his Starfleet training cost before Kirk stops him
So TOS era and a monetary system a definite yes,
TNG/DS9/VOY/LD and a monetary system a definite not always due to writer's trying to stick with Gene's vision and contradicting themselves

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Here's my current take on the lack of money on Earth in Star Trek, from the "What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?" thread [https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/wha...tar-trek-opinions.304751/page-4#post-13435398]:

No money means no money, not just no hard currency. As a human, or even as a guest alien, you can live comfortably on Earth without an money at all, you will never want for food, a place to live, free transportation around Earth, medical care, and a host of other things. But you will not be entitled to things that cost money, such as things sold by aliens on Earth, transportation to places not covered by your New World Economy entitlements. The economic relationship between Earth and the Federation is codified in its UFP membership. It involves trade and taxation of a fraction of Terran economic product measured according to terms specified there. A significant portion of Earth's economic output is labor. There are little known, seldom used conditions of New World citizenship, such as obligations to serve that have never been broadly invoked as far as we know, that form the backstop for the economic strength of Earth; post-atomic horror humanity has never become so leisurely despite wanting for nothing/little that pressed service has ever been necessary, except in special cases involving people who have already volunteered to serve in Federation organizations. ​

Some of that is obviously not canon, but everything there is, I think, either canon or an extrapolation of canon.

I am trying to recall the bar scene in the Star Trek 2009 movie, now Kirk wanted to buy Uhura a drink, if money does not exist the drinks would be free, why would a male use one of the oldest pick up actions i.e offering to buy someone (a female) a drink, if the drinks are free?

So, according to that, the way that would be handled would be that alcohol isn't one of the free things on Earth.

In other words, in Earth's New World economy, the basic necessities of life are literally free. They cannot be denied. Things that aren't necessities, well, you'll have to trade to get them. People have the right to own them.

A place to live? Free. By today's standards, it would be luxurious. To keep the economy going, it has to be. Remember, people have to be happy so that enough will work to pay the Federation dues (in hours worked over the cross section of needed jobs), because they're not getting paid for it! That one of a kind mansion on the bluffs or that winery in France? Not so free.

 

[BK613]

TNG/DS9/VOY/LD and a monetary system a definite not always due to writer's trying to stick with Gene's vision and contradicting themselves

But doesn't the whole no money thing start here? With a movie that GR had little to do with?

GILLIAN: Don't' tell me they don't use money in the twenty-third century.
KIRK: Well, they don't.​

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The book Trekonomics answers a lot of these questions.

 

[Phoenix219]

There might not be paper money and coins, but there is definitely a financial trading system in play, usually deemed as credits. Just because the Federation has a fantastic welfare program to meet baseline necessities does not mean there isn't a financial exchange system, or that raw material, ideas, physical labor and TIME are not valued and sought after commodities.

 

[Sci]

That's why Trek is so interesting. I don't think it is post-capitalist in the strictest sense, since, as Nyotarules points out, there are still means of exchange.

To be clear, having a means of exchange is not what makes something capitalist. Means of exchange existed long before capitalism and will probably exist long after.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but the gist of what defines an economic system as capitalism is that it is characterized by private ownership of the means of production, with the surplus value of workers' labor being distributed back to those private owners of the means of production.

So if you're an employee of Chateau Picard, and you have no ownership of the land or of the seeds or of the chemicals used to protect the crop from insects or of the water used to water the plants, or of the barrels used to store the wine as it ages, etc., and you're compensated with a value that is lesser than the value your labor creates for Chateau Picard, and all this is how the vast majority of the economy works, then that's a version of capitalism.

But if you're an employee of Chateau Picard and you and all the other employees are co-owners of the Chateau, and you all collectively co-own those means of production, and you all collectively receive an equitable percent of the profits made from your labor, and all this is how the vast majority of the economy works, then that would be one version of socialism.

In either scenario, you using a means of exchange to buy Nyota Uhura a drink when you visit that bar in Riverside, Iowa, does not determine whether economic system of the Federation as a whole is capitalist.

 

[fireproof78]

In either scenario, you using a means of exchange to buy Nyota Uhura a drink when you visit that bar in Riverside, Iowa, does not determine whether economic system of the Federation as a whole is capitalist.

That's a fair point.

 

[Tenacity]

But in that scene in Trek ‘09, I feel like it could just be an old saying used for that occasion (“Buy you a drink.” could just mean “Get you a drink.”, with the connotation of flirtation.)

Or it could literally mean buying someone a drink.

If Uhura was going to have casual sex with the person getting her a no-cost drink, wouldn't that person be the bartender?

 

[Sci]

But in that scene in Trek ‘09, I feel like it could just be an old saying used for that occasion (“Buy you a drink.” could just mean “Get you a drink.”, with the connotation of flirtation.)

Or it could literally mean buying someone a drink.

If Uhura was going to have casual sex with the person getting her a no-cost drink, wouldn't that person be the bartender?

That's a really weird way to frame the act of flirtation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But in that scene in Trek ‘09, I feel like it could just be an old saying used for that occasion (“Buy you a drink.” could just mean “Get you a drink.”, with the connotation of flirtation.) Or it could literally mean buying someone a drink.

I would think it'd be the latter...if it's just the act of going and getting the drink, surely the other person could just do it themselves?

Meaning: If you offer to buy someone a drink, you're doing them a service, i.e. you're ensuring they can get a drink for free where otherwise they'd have to pay for it. But if the drinks are already free, what have you actually done for them?

Especially since both in ST09 (Kirk offering to buy Uhura a drink) and in LD (Riker and Mariner), they're already at the bar!

 

[Tim Thomason]

I would think it'd be the latter...if it's just the act of going and getting the drink, surely the other person could just do it themselves?

Meaning: If you offer to buy someone a drink, you're doing them a service, i.e. you're ensuring they can get a drink for free where otherwise they'd have to pay for it. But if the drinks are already free, what have you actually done for them?

Especially since both in ST09 (Kirk offering to buy Uhura a drink) and in LD (Riker and Mariner), they're already at the bar!

It could be, for the sake of argument, that Cadet Uhura or Ensign Mariner are only allotted a specific number of drinks per day, and Captain Riker or Civilian Kirk can override this or just give them one of their allotment.

 

[fireproof78]

But if the drinks are already free, what have you actually done for them?

Showing them attention, which is what the whole point of "buying a drink" is to do.

It could be, for the sake of argument, that Cadet Uhura or Ensign Mariner are only allotted a specific number of drinks per day, and Captain Riker or Civilian Kirk can override this or just give them one of their allotment.

I do like this idea, and it would make sense from an organizational point of view to ensure they are able to report for duty.

 

[Vger23]

If I were a member of the Federation, I'd carry this wallet around, stuffed with all my supposedly non-existent money.

 

[Tim Thomason]

If I were a member of the Federation, I'd carry this wallet around, stuffed with all my supposedly non-existent money.

That looks like Admiral Clancy's wallet.

 

[Vger23]

That looks like Admiral Clancy's wallet.

I think it demonstrates a lot of sheer f-ing hubris for you to point that out.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

The Orville explains how a money-free society works pretty well in both "New Dimensions" and "All the World is Birthday Cake", about how the "currency" becomes ones reputation and character since replication technology makes monetary systems obsolete. Probably the best definition that could be applied to Trekdom.

 

[Odo]

I don't think language needs to be taken literally. For example, we say "I see what you mean." Literally, that means "I understand what you've said", but we have a conceptual metaphor - SEEING IS UNDERSTANDING. There are so many conceptual metaphors in language, many (most?) of which we are unconscious of - if someone says "he's hot", it probably doesn't mean the person is on fire, it means the speaker finds that person attractive. We also have tons of idioms - this could be a future Trek idiom.

As for the Uhura/Kirk drink scene, the act of going to get someone something (if buying a drink means getting someone a drink) shows a level of consideration - she could get it herself, but he's doing it for her. It could be as simple as ordering or reaching over and grabbing a drink to hand to her. Which in the context of the scene, suggests he's showing his interest in her.

That being said, again, it could also be meant to be taken literally. I think canon is, always has been, and always will be contradictory. (Vulcan has no moon right? ) And I actually think - on the whole - that that's a good thing, because it gets people talking about issues like we're doing, and it also allows for more creative freedom.

My interpretation of the Federation is that we're seeing them throughout the shows move towards a moneyless society, but they haven't quite reached it yet. As for how that might work, well that's for another post sometime! I will say a lot of what we assume is normal and necessary for society today probably won't be the same in 1000 years. As Spock himself said, "I like to believe that there are always possibilities."

Does money exist in Star Trek? I guess ultimately the answer is it depends on the episode - or the movie!

 

[Sci]

The Orville explains how a money-free society works pretty well in both "New Dimensions" and "All the World is Birthday Cake", about how the "currency" becomes ones reputation and character since replication technology makes monetary systems obsolete. Probably the best definition that could be applied to Trekdom.

I mean, The Orville's explanation works fine for micro-level interactions, but it doesn't really answer larger macro-questions about the functioning of a society's larger economy.