"...I took over the Enterprise from him...": An Observation

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I know this thread could belong in the TOS forum, but my "angle" on this is related to the new film...

In The Menagerie there is the often-quoted exchange between Kirk and Commodore Mendez in which Kirk says of Pike:

Mendez: [have] you ever met Chris Pike?
Kirk: We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain.
Mendez: About your age. Big handsome man; vital, active.
Kirk: I took over the Enterprise from him...
​

Most people (myself included) have always assumed that these two statements by Kirk are closely related to each other, as in "We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain" [which was the time] "I took over the Enterprise from him."

However, can we be sure that those two events occurred concurrently and near to each other chronologically? I think it is possible that the chronology happened like this:

• Cadet Kirk met Pike when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain, then
• Fleet Captain Pike served a while longer (perhaps a few years longer?) as the Officer in Commander of the Enterprise,
• THEN Kirk took over command from Pike -- but some time passed (years?) between that first meeting and the time Kirk took command -- and perhaps Pike was not even around when Kirk permanently assumes command.

I know it sounds as if I'm trying to shoehorn that Menagerie dialog into this film (and I am ), but even if we don't consider this film, does anyone else think that it is possible that Kirk's two statements regarding his past relationship with Pike are two separate and unconnected statements?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Crap, you found a loophole!

You're right, of course - if that is the precise dialogue, then Kirk didn't say that his first meeting with Pike was during the ship hand-over at all. It could have been years before.

Maybe Pike is already a fleet captain during the events of this movie. Supposedly Starfleet is sending a number of ships to assist the Vulcans, and Pike may be in overall command of the group.

It's still a mild violation for Kirk to have met him after a bar brawl in Iowa, of course.

 

[T'Aerwynd]

... does anyone else think that it is possible that Kirk's two statements regarding his past relationship with Pike are two separate and unconnected statements?

I have always thought so. As the person above me said, it was never said or implied that Kirk's meeting with Pike happened at the same time the Enterprise's command was transferred.

 

[JoeZhang]

That was the previous timeline Kirk - why do we think this still applies?

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

...It's still a mild violation for Kirk to have met him after a bar brawl in Iowa, of course.

Not if -- for some bizarre reason -- Pike was celebrating his promotion by going to a bar in Iowa (now I'm reaaaallly reaching.)

Pike's Friend: Let's celebrate your promotion Chris. Where do you want to go -- Amsterdam? New York City? Las Vegas? Paris?
Pike: No. Iowa.

 

[BenRoethig]

It's still a mild violation for Kirk to have met him after a bar brawl in Iowa, of course.

Spoiler: Not Really

The meeting in Iowa happens in an altered timeline

... does anyone else think that it is possible that Kirk's two statements regarding his past relationship with Pike are two separate and unconnected statements?

I have always thought so. As the person above me said, it was never said or implied that Kirk's meeting with Pike happened at the same time the Enterprise's command was transferred.

Its very likely though. Kirk would have had to meet Pike during the Chain of Command.

 

[T'Aerwynd]

... does anyone else think that it is possible that Kirk's two statements regarding his past relationship with Pike are two separate and unconnected statements?

I have always thought so. As the person above me said, it was never said or implied that Kirk's meeting with Pike happened at the same time the Enterprise's command was transferred.

Its very likely though. Kirk would have had to meet Pike during the Chain of Command.[/quote]
I would imagine so. But there's nothing that implies that was Kirk's *ONLY* meeting with Pike.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

That was the previous timeline Kirk - why do we think this still applies?

Why do we assume it doesn't is the real question. Abrams and the writers have made it very clear that they have attempted to stick to canon as much as possible and to make the events in this film fit within that canon.

I don't understand why if Pike was promoted to fleet captain, he would not still be the captain of the Enterprise. Good job Roykirk.

-Shawn

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Supposedly giving someone command of a group of ships is a reason to promote them to fleet captain.

So Pike is given the command of a group sent to save Vulcan, and promoted to fleet captain.

 

[Carbon Unit]

Cadet Kirk met Pike when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain, then

• Fleet Captain Pike served a while longer (perhaps a few years longer?) as the Officer in Commander of the Enterprise,
• THEN Kirk took over command from Pike -- but some time passed (years?) between that first meeting and the time Kirk took command -- and perhaps Pike was not even around when Kirk permanently assumes command.

Brilliant! Well done!

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Supposedly giving someone command of a group of ships is a reason to promote them to fleet captain.

So Pike is given the command of a group sent to save Vulcan, and promoted to fleet captain.

Not only does it work, but if that's how it plays out and the rest of the movie is similarly like this in regards to sticking to canon... it's brilliant, one and two, the naysayers can collectively kiss my aft-section as I say, "I told you so."

The ship still's ass-fugly, though.

-Shawn

 

[Franklin]

I know this thread could belong in the TOS forum, but my "angle" on this is related to the new film...

In The Menagerie there is the often-quoted exchange between Kirk and Commodore Mendez in which Kirk says of Pike:

Mendez: [have] you ever met Chris Pike?
Kirk: We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain.
Mendez: About your age. Big handsome man; vital, active.
Kirk: I took over the Enterprise from him...
​

Most people (myself included) have always assumed that these two statements by Kirk are closely related to each other, as in "We met when he was promoted to Fleet Captain" [which was the time] "I took over the Enterprise from him."

However, can we be sure that those two events occurred concurrently and near to each other chronologically? I think it is possible that the chronology happened like this:

• Cadet Kirk met Pike when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain, then
• Fleet Captain Pike served a while longer (perhaps a few years longer?) as the Officer in Commander of the Enterprise,
• THEN Kirk took over command from Pike -- but some time passed (years?) between that first meeting and the time Kirk took command -- and perhaps Pike was not even around when Kirk permanently assumes command.

I know it sounds as if I'm trying to shoehorn that Menagerie dialog into this film (and I am ), but even if we don't consider this film, does anyone else think that it is possible that Kirk's two statements regarding his past relationship with Pike are two separate and unconnected statements?

Now would be the time to see the those who run this board about a promotion, yourself.

Damn you Abrams! We'll make this movie fit!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't understand why if Pike was promoted to fleet captain, he would not still be the captain of the Enterprise. Good job Roykirk.

Quite.

We've seen at least two officers in TOS with the rank of Commodore (Matt Decker, Bob Wesley) who maintained commands of their own. Assuming Fleet Captain is an actual rank, not just an O-6 Captain with more seniority - which may or may not be true (personally, I'm going with the latter) - there's no reason why it couldn't be similar.

 

[indranee]

okay, I have not been following Trek XI as closely as I could have in the past few months (blame the elections!) but why are we all so convinced that this movie is in a different timeline? is this something JJ has said or is this just conjecture on our part? please, someone explain. I don't want this movie to be set in an alternate universe!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

"Alternate universe" is a convenient fiction for going back and changing backstory.

 

[indranee]

so Dennis, JJ has actually said this?

I can understand and excuse "reimagining"... we can't get way from it completely. but I'll lose all interest if this was out and out a sort of parallel universe thing. yuck.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

It would be the same universe - as the storytelling fiction goes. Just changed.

 

[indranee]

sigh...

 

[Captain Mike]

It would be the same universe - as the storytelling fiction goes. Just changed.

Nnnnexxxt Timmme...on Star Trek: The the Alternate Universe!!!....

 

[I Grok Spock]

I think it is possible that the chronology happened like this:

• Cadet Kirk met Pike when Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain, then
• Fleet Captain Pike served a while longer (perhaps a few years longer?) as the Officer in Commander of the Enterprise,
• THEN Kirk took over command from Pike -- but some time passed (years?) between that first meeting and the time Kirk took command -- and perhaps Pike was not even around when Kirk permanently assumes command.

I know it sounds as if I'm trying to shoehorn that Menagerie dialog into this film (and I am ), but even if we don't consider this film, does anyone else think that it is possible that Kirk's two statements regarding his past relationship with Pike are two separate and unconnected statements?

The only factoid this doesn't address is:

Mendez: About your age. Big handsome man; vital, active.

It's obvious from the film's casting that Pike is no longer "about [Kirk's] age." So just throw that out and the rest is fine.