I think I like how Mulgrew thinks.

[JanewayRulz!]

The Admiral Janeway of "Nemesis" is not the same admiral we saw in "Engame." I always thought it was bogus to arrest Captain Braxton for crimes he was going to commit, and I don't think they can blame "Endgame" Captain Janeway for what the elder Janeway did.

True, and yet 3 years later Tom Cruise starred in a feature length film (Minority Report) based on the same premise.

Just because the idea is bad, doesn't mean humans won't find a way to implement it.

I agree that they can't hold Captain Janeway responsible for Admiral Janeway's "crime" against time. They are two completely different people, unlike the 2 Janeways we saw in "Deadlock".

I also submit that Admiral Janeway paid for her crimes by dying in the pursuit of destruction of the BORG threat. Maybe Starfleet won't reward her for such heroism, but I doubt there's a person on Voyager that won't go to bed every night, thanking her for what she did.

 

[kimc]

The Admiral Janeway of "Nemesis" is not the same admiral we saw in "Engame." I always thought it was bogus to arrest Captain Braxton for crimes he was going to commit, and I don't think they can blame "Endgame" Captain Janeway for what the elder Janeway did.

I agree. When they said they were arresting Captain Braxton for something is future self had done I was like wtf?

 

[Brit]

^ Is there any way this could not be an "angry fanboy" reaction to Janeway giving Picard orders in a TNG film? I mean, Janeway showed up as an admiral in "Endgame" but I don't recall seeing the "contain her as an admiral" theory until after the movie. Just wondering...

Whether it’s the individual making the comment or not, it is in general, a fanboy comment. I think that a lot of fanboy dislike of Janeway is based in a kind of fear that they are always going to have to answer to their mom (which could actually be true). Women are not always the mom or the girlfriend. So is Guy making this fanboy comment because he is, or does he truly dislike the character I don’t know? But I am very reasonably sure that a great deal of the dislike of the character is based in her gender and not in the character herself.

I saw “Nemesis” about the second day it was out. It was a matinée so the theater was filled with people of all ages. When we got to the famous scene where Admiral Janeway gives Picard his orders (which alone tells most of us she has a certain amount power), and out in the darkness came an adolescent male voice. “How come SHE gets to be an admiral before Picard?” And he did put a great deal of emphasis the word SHE. To this day I wish I had also called out in the dark “Because SHE said yes!”

We only see what we want to see in the Endgame scenes, you can see a wonderful world all you want but the fact is we can say it was a horrible world and be just as right. Admiral Janeway did what she did, the Temporal Integrity Commission didn’t come after her, and Captain Janeway was given a promotion. And people get promoted because they do things right, when they cease to do things right they no longer get promoted. It is a common and documented principle. People hardly ever get kicked upstairs, no matter how much you would like to believe it.

As for deaths, one could easily say by your standards that Jake Sisko killed Jadiza Dax. But the truth is we always have choices, we are responsible for ourselves no matter what time line we are in. I don’t believe in predestination and that is the only way your scenario works. When Admiral Janeway changed time, everyone got a second chance and their lives still depended on their individual choices. One could frankly make the argument that Jadiza traded her life for a short time of happiness with Worf, and just maybe it was for her the better way to live even if shorter.

Brit

By the way the principle I spoke of is "The Peter Principle" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

 

[JanewayRulz!]

One could frankly make the argument that Jadiza traded her life for a short time of happiness with Worf, and just maybe it was for her the better way to live even if shorter.

Nicely done.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I saw “Nemesis” about the second day it was out. It was a matinée so the theater was filled with people of all ages. When we got to the famous scene where Admiral Janeway gives Picard his orders (which alone tells most of us she has a certain amount power), and out in the darkness came an adolescent male voice. “How come SHE gets to be an admiral before Picard?” And he did put a great deal of emphasis the word SHE. To this day I wish I had also called out in the dark “Because SHE said yes!”

How odd, maybe I am a sexist pig, since I would have said "Because he said no."

Which isn't that sexist, since he did say "no" in the lead up to Conspiracy when they offered him the Comandantship of Starfleet Academy which has to be the equivalence of an Admiralty, and in the here and now Mulgrew is saying that she wished Janeway hadn't said "Yes".

I did however blurt something out louder than I wanted to, during a screening of Insurrection, during the bath scene with Dee and Riker: "My God! He shaved his back!"

 

[AuntKate]

Mulgrew never said that she is sorry Janeway said yes to being an admiral. What she said was that Janeway would have a hard time adjusting to life on a planet after spending so long in space, coming to realize that "space is her home." As an admiral, she can get a job in space. In fact, we saw her in an office at SFHQ, but who's to say that she is there all the time. Perhaps she is in charge of the fleet out near the "Romulan sectors" and was only in San Francisco for a conference or meeting? We just don't see enough of her to know what her "real" job is. However, we do know that she gives orders to "line" officers, so she isn't in charge of materiel, maintenance, or R&D.

I'm a Picard fan, too, but I don't mind that Janeway was promoted "first." It is a matter of choice for both of them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Thinking back to the best of Both worlds and first contact. Shelby said that after saving the earth that he would have the pick of any command in the fleet... Could advancement for Picard have been any less of of a possibility even is he was "asleep" throughout most of the mission? But we didn't find out till First Contact that the Admiralty didn't trust Picard, they didn't trust him against the Borg because they broke him and if Deanna forwarded all her reports to Starfleet Command, they wouldn't trut him against the Cardassians either because they broke him too.

Picard destroyed 38 ships. It takes a while to dig yourself out of a whole like that. Hells, after he lost the Stargazer it took them ten years to trust him with another Starship and then Deanna crashed it into the side of a planet.

Picard was a clusterfuck of bad luck, sure he won the day a lot, but look at the cost, the terrible cost in manpower and ships. I honestly would have promoted him just to stop him losing Starships. They're quite costly to replace don'tchu know?

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

You have to take the promotion. Picard was often offered the promotion but declined.

 

[kimc]

^ True. Captain of the Enterprise was what he wanted to be. He didn't want to give it up and why should he? Janeway, on the other hand as the daughter of an influential admiral would have seen more possibilities in the position.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Already covered that.

How odd, maybe I am a sexist pig, since I would have said "Because he said no."

I recall in TNG:Rascals (they were turned into kids) Bev saying "And you could spend a few years at the academy and still become the youngest Admiral in Starfleet history." Meanwhile in TNG Future Imperfect where a lonely child tried to convince Riker he was his kid and he'd had 15 years worth of memory loss and Picard was an Admiral there in that dream of Rikers. So even if Picard didn't want an Admiralty, which he didn't, his crew thought he deserved promotion and that he should go for it eventually.

Oh!

What is middle age?

McCoy was 137 in Encounter at Farpoint.

Hell Janeway barely into her 40s under the new scale of things might have been regarded as an adolescent, and it was Picard who in his 70s was approaching the prime of his life and middle Age.

 

[vas2009]

^ True. Captain of the Enterprise was what he wanted to be. He didn't want to give it up and why should he? Janeway, on the other hand as the daughter of an influential admiral would have seen more possibilities in the position.

Nicely said.

In my experience with TNG Picard mostly stays on the bridge... meaning he is a commander a Captain and that is all.
Picard- "Make it so"
Janeway- Move out of my way I'll do it.

Not saying Picard sux. I like him, he obviously is just interesting in being a Captain.

Janeway has interest in the TOP

 

[Ensign Johnson]

Captain Janeway is more of an action hero than Picard, she goes back to the Kirk style of Captaining (minus the womanising, as far as we know anyway). In my mind Janeway will always be saving the day single handedly and often breaking the prime directive to do so, even if she's an Admiral.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The XO's job is to stop the Captain from killing hirself.

Chuckles sucked at his job.

I heard something recently which must be oldhat and i just missed

A Jane Austen hero in a John Grisham world.

Remarkably that soundbite more describes Picard than Janeway.

I think that Janeway is completely insync with her era, not ahead or behind of what is expected of her as a person.