I really need some advice

[ElBurro]

Five months ago, I moved in with a friend of mine who I've known for 10 years. We're really close and he's one of my best friends. Shortly before I moved in, he broke up with his girlfriend of 6 and a half years. A couple of months before she left him, she met a guy on a night out and they became friends. She was spending a lot of time with him, and she was talking about him all the time. It caused problems between the two of them and they were arguing a lot. Eventually, she cheated on housemate and a couple of weeks later, moved out.

Housemate is still taking it really hard seven months on. He's always liked a drink, but since she left, he's been drinking far too much. This morning, he got up, went to the toilet, had a cigarette and opened a beer. He'd been up for about 15 minutes when he started drinking. It's not the first time he's been drinking that early. Last Monday, he was up from 5:30am till 11:30pm and was drinking vodka throughout. In the past week, I've had to put him to bed twice because he was too drunk to get there himself.

As well as the drinking, I'm fairly certain that he is suffering from depression (and there's probably a link between the two) but he won't acknowledge it. I've suffered from depression myself for almost 13 years and I can recognise the syptoms in him. A while ago, I was trying to explain to him what depression was like and he just dismissed it, saying 'everyone feels like that'. He also said that he felt like that all the time. It just didn't occur to him that maybe he was depressed.

His behaviour when he's drunk is really starting to get to me and exacerbating my own depression. In fact, right now, I'm at my dad's house overnight because he's been drinking all day and I don't feel up to dealing with him tonight. When he's drunk, he either insults me, ignores me or hits on me and I'm fed up of all three. It's like a Jekyll and Hyde situation. I love Jekyll but can't stand Hyde.

I'm really struggling to figure out what to do. I don't know what, if anything, I should say to him. If anyone has any advice I would really appreciate it.

 

[Timby]

You're right in that heavy drinking and depression are generally linked -- I'm a big believer in dual diagnosis. Generally speaking, heavy drinking isn't the problem, rather, it's a symptom of a larger problem, usually depression.

Right now, the best thing, the only thing, that you can do is catch him in a moment of sobriety (which seems to be rather rare, unfortunately) and be as blunt and honest as possible: "Hey, Friend, there's something I need to talk to you about. I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, but you're drinking way too much, it isn't healthy for you and it's really affecting my ability to live here."

He might take it at face value and do some self-introspection. More likely, he'll say, "You're not my mother" or some other dismissive statement in an attempt to absolve himself of responsibility and the need to actually take a look at himself -- "it's everyone else who's the asshole, don't they understand why I do what I do?" What's important, though, is that you'll have done all you can actually do. If the situation doesn't improve, you should look at moving out, because the only person who can change anything in that situation is himself. I'm not saying the guy's an alcoholic (we recovering alkies are too busy trying to keep ourselves on the straight and narrow to judge others), but he's got symptoms of, at the very least, dependence. (The drinking early in the morning is a huge sign.)

Good luck to him, and to you. Alcohol abuse is a very real and very nasty thing.

 

[JiNX-01]

You're right in that heavy drinking and depression are generally linked -- I'm a big believer in dual diagnosis. Generally speaking, heavy drinking isn't the problem, rather, it's a symptom of a larger problem, usually depression.

Right now, the best thing, the only thing, that you can do is catch him in a moment of sobriety (which seems to be rather rare, unfortunately) and be as blunt and honest as possible: "Hey, Friend, there's something I need to talk to you about. I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, but you're drinking way too much, it isn't healthy for you and it's really affecting my ability to live here."

He might take it at face value and do some self-introspection. More likely, he'll say, "You're not my mother" or some other dismissive statement in an attempt to absolve himself of responsibility and the need to actually take a look at himself -- "it's everyone else who's the asshole, don't they understand why I do what I do?" What's important, though, is that you'll have done all you can actually do. If the situation doesn't improve, you should look at moving out, because the only person who can change anything in that situation is himself. I'm not saying the guy's an alcoholic (we recovering alkies are too busy trying to keep ourselves on the straight and narrow to judge others), but he's got symptoms of, at the very least, dependence. (The drinking early in the morning is a huge sign.)

Good luck to him, and to you. Alcohol abuse is a very real and very nasty thing.

^ I second that.

 

[DBR]

I don't mean to sound like a callous prick, but you have to look out for yourself first. If this guy causing you ill and hardship, maybe deal him out. You can't save the world.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You're right in that heavy drinking and depression are generally linked -- I'm a big believer in dual diagnosis. Generally speaking, heavy drinking isn't the problem, rather, it's a symptom of a larger problem, usually depression.

I agree that more than one diagnosis is often appropriate. However, based on what you've said, there's not enough information to know whether, and to what degree, the alcohol is a symptom or a cause of your roommate's issues.

I strongly suspect that drinking is both a symptom of underlying issues and a cause of others, especially now after months of this. It's a virtual certainty that it will be impossible for him to deal with any underlying issues while he is still drinking. And, it seems unlikely now that he can stop drinking on his own.

he's got symptoms of, at the very least, dependence. (The drinking early in the morning is a huge sign.)

Yep.

I don't mean to sound like a callous prick, but you have to look out for yourself first. If this guy causing you ill and hardship, maybe deal him out. You can't save the world.

His behaviour when he's drunk is really starting to get to me and exacerbating my own depression. In fact, right now, I'm at my dad's house overnight because he's been drinking all day and I don't feel up to dealing with him tonight. When he's drunk, he either insults me, ignores me or hits on me and I'm fed up of all three. It's like a Jekyll and Hyde situation. I love Jekyll but can't stand Hyde.

This makes it sound like your well-being is threatened by the situation. I would advise you to make all efforts to safeguard your own mental health as a priority. One shouldn't play chicken with depression.

You might want to consider lining up other living arrangements, even while you are waiting for the opportunity to catch your roommate in a moment of sobriety. It may take a long time before you find a moment in which he is able to really hear you. Don't keep waiting for that moment while your own mental health suffers. DBR might be right, even if blunt. I would also examine whether the fact that you are already staying away overnights is a sign that you might feel better moving out permanently.

Finally, don't let your investment in your friendship cause you to feel like you have to stick it out, even while it damages your own mental health. Even if you try to stick it out, as long as he is in this funk and drinking, it sounds like there's an excellent chance your friendship will suffer to the point of implosion anyway.

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck. I hope your roommate realizes how much of a good friend you are, in that this decision you are facing seems to be one that you are agonizing over.

P.S. If you have a doctor of your own who treats or has treated your depression, I would consider seeing him or her as soon as possible to discuss this situation and how it is affecting you.

 

[Gov Kodos]

You're right in that heavy drinking and depression are generally linked -- I'm a big believer in dual diagnosis. Generally speaking, heavy drinking isn't the problem, rather, it's a symptom of a larger problem, usually depression.

I agree that more than one diagnosis is often appropriate. However, based on what you've said, there's not enough information to know whether, and to what degree, the alcohol is a symptom or a cause of your roommate's issues.

I strongly suspect that drinking is both a symptom of underlying issues and a cause of others, especially now after months of this. It's a virtual certainty that it will be impossible for him to deal with any underlying issues while he is still drinking. And, it seems unlikely now that he can stop drinking on his own.

he's got symptoms of, at the very least, dependence. (The drinking early in the morning is a huge sign.)

Yep.

I don't mean to sound like a callous prick, but you have to look out for yourself first. If this guy causing you ill and hardship, maybe deal him out. You can't save the world.

His behaviour when he's drunk is really starting to get to me and exacerbating my own depression. In fact, right now, I'm at my dad's house overnight because he's been drinking all day and I don't feel up to dealing with him tonight. When he's drunk, he either insults me, ignores me or hits on me and I'm fed up of all three. It's like a Jekyll and Hyde situation. I love Jekyll but can't stand Hyde.

This makes it sound like your well-being is threatened by the situation. I would advise you to make all efforts to safeguard your own mental health as a priority. One shouldn't play chicken with depression.

You might want to consider lining up other living arrangements, even while you are waiting for the opportunity to catch your roommate in a moment of sobriety. It may take a long time before you find a moment in which he is able to really hear you. Don't keep waiting for that moment while your own mental health suffers. DBR might be right, even if blunt. I would also examine whether the fact that you are already staying away overnights is a sign that you might feel better moving out permanently.

Finally, don't let your investment in your friendship cause you to feel like you have to stick it out, even while it damages your own mental health. Even if you try to stick it out, as long as he is in this funk and drinking, it sounds like there's an excellent chance your friendship will suffer to the point of implosion anyway.

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck. I hope your roommate realizes how much of a good friend you are, in that this decision you are facing seems to be one that you are agonizing over.

P.S. If you have a doctor of your own who treats or has treated your depression, I would consider seeing him or her as soon as possible to discuss this situation and how it is affecting you.

Excellent advice. Take care of yourself here. You shouldn't feel you can't sleep in your own place and you really shouldn't have to put up with the behavior when he's drunk, or the lack of recognition of its ilk and ill when he's sober.

 

[ElBurro]

Thanks all for your advice. I understand where you are coming from on the 'look after myself' front, but I really want to help him and I think if I moved out it may make it worse. A couple of weeks ago, housemate and I went to a cabaret evening organized by a friend of ours. My best friend came with us and stayed over night at our house afterwards. The three of us where at college together so we've all known each other for years. She knew that he drank a lot but she didn't realise it was this bad till that night (this was one of the nights I had to put him to bed). At the cabaret, she and housemate where talking and I was at the other side of the room talking to someone else. BF told me that while she was talking to HM he suddenly got really panicky and was looking around for me and asking where I was. She pointed to me and said 'she's over there' and he relaxed and they went back to their conversation. A couple of days later, he woke me up in the morning to ask if I wanted a cup of coffee. He's never done that before. The only times he's woken my up in the morning since I moved in were to ask for a cigarette and to switch the heating on (the boiler and heating controls are in my room). He said he wanted to talk to me. Not about anything in particular, he just wanted to see me. He's also taken to calling me when he's on his way home from work. It's a half hour walk and he used to call his girlfriend while he walked. In the past week, he's called me everyday on his way back.

I think he realises how much he drinks, but doesn't realise it's a problem. He's been doing this 30 day song challenge on facebook and the outline for day 28 is a song that makes you feel guilty. He put Revelry by Kings of Leon - a song about a man who lost the love of his life because of his drinking. I don't know if thats a good sign or what.

If it came down to it, I would move out. My dad knows about everything that's going on and said that I can always move back in with him if I need to. But I would like to do what I can to help and keep moving out as a last resort.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Thanks all for your advice. I understand where you are coming from on the 'look after myself' front, but I really want to help him and I think if I moved out it may make it worse.

It's a good thing you don't have anything more important to do than nurse a drunkard and worry the hell out of your father.
There are two sides, one in which you are an awesome friend, a really good person - and the other in which you're getting something out of this illness and outrageous behavior. It's hard to tell from your posting. Some romantic feeling perhaps, or just filling a nurturing instinct, or maybe it is just friend loyalty.
What do the alcoholism counselors that you can call have to say? Do they think you should move out? Surely you've consulted with them, since you want to help.

 

[KJbushway]

Unfortunately there is not much you do.
That many years, love.
its going to take longer than 7 months or maybe even a year to get him to finally start over his life. The only way this is going to change and make him see the light, would be him hit rock bottom.

 

[Captain_Nick]

Whatever your motives for 'wanting to help' are I am sure they are ultimately selfish. Let them go.

To paraphrase lower class fat housewives, you need to 'dump the zero and get yourself a hero'

Maybe you are young and you have not yet learned that you cannot help a man that does not want to help himself.

Do not selfishly interfere with his descent because it makes you feel good to be 'helping'. You will ruin an already damaged relationship to no purpose.

Preserve yourself. Get out of there. Do not allow his negative 'life choices' to impart negative consequences on yourself.

 

[think]

//IMO//

So help the poor dude, or not, you can /just like, you know/ get him locked up or something(lots of options there) that would sober him some? Yes?

really front or no front - be good to yourself,

The real front or deal is that if you or anyone can separate said roommate from the drink for long enough for him to realize that drinking is the problem then there might be some sense to you staying beyond the mere need to keep his stuff and the apartment from being Lost?

Listen: I took it hard once when I lost my gf and well I needed intervention(meaning-getting locked up after losing everything) as well, if that is what is called for then do-it. I can't say either way or what to do, none of us can, say but you want to help that might be the best solution.

//IMO//

 

[ElBurro]

CaptainStoner - I am not worrying the hell out of my father. All I said was that he knows the situation and that I can move back in if I need to. He doesn't like seeing me this worried about HM but he's not worried about me. As for me getting something out of this, I'm not getting anything. There is nothing romantic between HM and me - never has been, never will be. I just want to help a friend.

KJbushway - Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting HM to be over the relationship. They were together for a long time and lived together. I know it's going to take time for him to get over it. But the drinking isn't helping. If anything, it's making it worse.

Collingwood Nick - I don't have any motives for wanting to help. He's a friend and he's going through something really bad and needs help. I'm 28 and I know that I can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. It doesn't make me feel good to be helping. I'm helping because he needs someone.

think - He's skipping work today (again) so I think I might talk to him today. He's not drinking at the moment because he's broke and can't afford it. He was drinking long before the breakup and it was a problem between him and the GF. But it's gotten so much worse since she left. One of the problems is that he is taking all the blame for the breakup when she was the one who cheated. She's put it into his head that he made her cheat on him.

 

[Gov Kodos]

CaptainStoner - I am not worrying the hell out of my father. All I said was that he knows the situation and that I can move back in if I need to. He doesn't like seeing me this worried about HM but he's not worried about me. As for me getting something out of this, I'm not getting anything. There is nothing romantic between HM and me - never has been, never will be. I just want to help a friend.

You say this, but a number of his behaviors sound like he's treating you somewhat as a girlfriend. The party description when he couldn't see you for a moment, the new helpful behaviors you mentioned and his flirting when drunk may indicate he's developing feelings you may not want, if you intend to have no relationship. Drinking and depression can do that.

KJbushway - Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting HM to be over the relationship. They were together for a long time and lived together. I know it's going to take time for him to get over it. But the drinking isn't helping. If anything, it's making it worse.

Yes, and...? You say he's missing work, drinking himself broke, eventually you could be alone in supporting this apartment and him with that kind of trend.

Collingwood Nick - I don't have any motives for wanting to help. He's a friend and he's going through something really bad and needs help. I'm 28 and I know that I can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. It doesn't make me feel good to be helping. I'm helping because he needs someone.

He may need help, make sure that it is help and not enabling. Being so close in friendship can make choosing actions difficult when a more detached perspective could be needed. Sometimes friends can be the worst help, too, since they can be too forgiving.

think - He's skipping work today (again) so I think I might talk to him today. He's not drinking at the moment because he's broke and can't afford it. He was drinking long before the breakup and it was a problem between him and the GF. But it's gotten so much worse since she left. One of the problems is that he is taking all the blame for the breakup when she was the one who cheated. She's put it into his head that he made her cheat on him.

I don't know the whys and wherefores, but maybe the drinking did make him neglectful enough that the ex finally had enough. Making her cheat, are those her words or his interpretation? Not that it matters here, really, more so is you.

Loyalty shouldn't be an issue here, certainly not yours. Some of this sounds like more perspective than this message board is in order. You seem to have noticed a larger issue which brought you to post this question here. What kind of answers or advice did you hope to see? What do you plan to do with it, if anything? If you want to help him, you can't help at all unless you make sure you are helping or enabling.

 

[KJbushway]

CaptainStoner - I am not worrying the hell out of my father. All I said was that he knows the situation and that I can move back in if I need to. He doesn't like seeing me this worried about HM but he's not worried about me. As for me getting something out of this, I'm not getting anything. There is nothing romantic between HM and me - never has been, never will be. I just want to help a friend.

KJbushway - Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting HM to be over the relationship. They were together for a long time and lived together. I know it's going to take time for him to get over it. But the drinking isn't helping. If anything, it's making it worse.

Collingwood Nick - I don't have any motives for wanting to help. He's a friend and he's going through something really bad and needs help. I'm 28 and I know that I can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. It doesn't make me feel good to be helping. I'm helping because he needs someone.

think - He's skipping work today (again) so I think I might talk to him today. He's not drinking at the moment because he's broke and can't afford it. He was drinking long before the breakup and it was a problem between him and the GF. But it's gotten so much worse since she left. One of the problems is that he is taking all the blame for the breakup when she was the one who cheated. She's put it into his head that he made her cheat on him.

The only way he might stop drinking is if he hits rock bottom and he hits hard. Tough love is the only kind of love he might need.

 

[Kestra]

It's a good thing you don't have anything more important to do than nurse a drunkard and worry the hell out of your father.
There are two sides, one in which you are an awesome friend, a really good person - and the other in which you're getting something out of this illness and outrageous behavior. It's hard to tell from your posting. Some romantic feeling perhaps, or just filling a nurturing instinct, or maybe it is just friend loyalty.
What do the alcoholism counselors that you can call have to say? Do they think you should move out? Surely you've consulted with them, since you want to help.

I think you're coming across a bit harsh here. I understand what you're saying, but there is no reason to assume self-serving motives.

I'm really struggling to figure out what to do. I don't know what, if anything, I should say to him. If anyone has any advice I would really appreciate it.

You've received a lot of good advice in this thread, but I think it's hard to hear and you're probably not going to follow it. You seem unwilling to move out or distance yourself yet. I get it. But the truth is, you cannot fix this situation. He's going to do what he wants and needs to do, and you're along for the ride until you decide to get off.

That's not to say that you can't be supportive, just understand that you have no control over his behavior. It's not a rational thing either, so don't expect things to suddenly change just because you've sat him down and explained your concerns to him.

If you want to continue to be involved in his life, try what Timby suggested. You need to know that you've tried. Beyond that, try setting some boundaries. Let him know that you care for him and are supportive, but you will not support dangerous, reckless, or inconsiderate behavior. Ask him to go to a support group with you or talk to a counselor.

But be prepared for him to continue on a downward spiral and be prepared to get out because it will affect your health. Loving someone doesn't have to mean being their caretaker.

In my experience, the most difficult thing about having a loved one abuse alcohol is realizing that you have no control over them and really cannot help them. That's something you're going to have to go through yourself, I'm afraid. Please look after your own mental health.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I think you're coming across a bit harsh here. I understand what you're saying, but there is no reason to assume self-serving motives.

It was harsh, which is why I came back into the thread - I am sorry for that -
it's frustrating as hell to see people you love in situations like this, actually worse than this example, and so the thread triggers those feelings. An ex-girlfriend being thrown down the stairs, a close friend beaten by his girlfriend - I'm talking broken bones, smashed-in sinus -
but anyway you're right Kestra to call me out on that.

CaptainStoner - I am not worrying the hell out of my father. All I said was that he knows the situation and that I can move back in if I need to. He doesn't like seeing me this worried about HM but he's not worried about me. As for me getting something out of this, I'm not getting anything. There is nothing romantic between HM and me - never has been, never will be. I just want to help a friend.

And again I'm sorry for the prick-ish tone. It may be a powder keg you're living in though. You've said he gets verbally abusive and hits on you when drunk. Just please go home if that escalates at all.
And I meant what I said before about you're being a solid friend.
Glad you're Dad's not a worrier, though I'd still bet real money he is worrying some, after you've gone.

* - but there probably is free counseling with people with a lot of experience in this kind of stuff available to you, since you're in it. no need to re-invent the wheel...

 

[KJbushway]

I am telling you that counseling might not work, the one thing that might fix this is time or him just hitting rock bottom and hard, very hard.

 

[Kestra]

I think you're coming across a bit harsh here. I understand what you're saying, but there is no reason to assume self-serving motives.

It was harsh, which is why I came back into the thread - I am sorry for that -
it's frustrating as hell to see people you love in situations like this, actually worse than this example, and so the thread triggers those feelings. An ex-girlfriend being thrown down the stairs, a close friend beaten by his girlfriend - I'm talking broken bones, smashed-in sinus -
but anyway you're right Kestra to call me out on that.

Thanks for coming back and clarifying things. It's definitely a topic where emotions can run high and I'm sure you were just being supportive in your own way.

I am telling you that counseling might not work, the one thing that might fix this is time or him just hitting rock bottom and hard, very hard.

It's irresponsible to discourage anyone from seeking counseling. There are already so many barriers to seeking mental health treatment, we don't really need any more. Not everyone has to do something destructive or permanent before seeking help for a substance abuse problem.

 

[KJbushway]

Ok. I wasn't saying don't go to counseling that would be discouraging, I only said that it might not work. See I actually have one of these kind in my garage becuase my sister thought she could help him like the OP, so I might know first hand about this. He is hitting rock bottom becuase nothing worked. I was just saying that counseling doesn't work for anyone, and if he just drinks and gets angry, it might not work. So its irresponible for me to say hey it might not work so be prepared, but not irresponsible for someone to say its a mircale cure, when its most often not, especially for men.

 

[Timby]

Except no one said it's a miracle cure, and you're just arguing with a straw man.