Why do you have to look at anything?
I Pledge Allegiance...Umm, no I don't!
- Thread starter TheLonelySquire
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Why do you have to look at anything?
TheLonelySquire
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I appreciate your point, Kate. But you don't have to look that hard to see what I'm saying. And the pro-God among the founders and statesmen far outweighs the opposite, imo.
TheLonelySquire said:
As far as I know, you're absolutely right, Squire. I haven't looked into it in any great detail, but that is my understanding from my reading of history - and I have read a fair amount of history, what with one thing and another.
You caught me.
I admit that my post was merely my attempt to try to head off another of those threads in which we get posts like this:Pro-religion
Anti-religion
Agree with anti-religion
Disagree with anti religion, agree with pro-religion
Disagree with pro-religion, agree with anti-religion...
etc. Those kinds of threads are fine for those who enjoy them, but while I have at times participated in these, I just don't have much of a stomach for them. And since I'm enjoying this discussion of the pledge, I was hoping it wouldn't turn into yet another religion thread. But we'll see.
Oh noes! Politicians caught espousing both sides of an issue to gain political favor! This is shocking!
Oh wait, no it isn't. Whatever they said is not important as what they wrote and emedded as the law of the country and it seems pretty clear at that. They did not want any single religion dominating or being overly powerful or influential even though it's obvious that failed.
Oh wait, no it isn't. Whatever they said is not important as what they wrote and emedded as the law of the country and it seems pretty clear at that. They did not want any single religion dominating or being overly powerful or influential even though it's obvious that failed.
Like any other group, there was a range of beliefs among the Founding Fathers; among them, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were the most modern. Jefferson was even accused of being an Atheist by his political enemies, and he may have been. Washington didn't ever seem to want to discuss his beliefs much, and stated that the United States is not a Christian nation. Adams was probably the one who mouthed off the most about religion, but he had a few issues; he was the one who slunk off in the middle of the night when he lost the Presidency to Jefferson. In any case, it's pretty clear that the Founding Fathers wanted Separation of Church and State. They wanted all to be equal in a secular society. They wanted "E Pluribus Unum," not "God Bless America."
I knew you were being facetious, too. Another interesting thing about the song is that the refrain was originally something along the lines of "God made America for you and me," and was eventually rewritten to further establish it as an alternative to Berlin's song.
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Well, when "under God" was jammed into the original pledge, your wish went out the window. As we have read, to some folks that IS a big part of the decision to recite the pledge or not.
--Ted
Well, in principle. The American Right has spent a generation in ginning up "culture wars" to try to prove that wrong..."wars" that they've pretty thoroughly lost even according to their own pundits.
Personally, I'm a very proud American. I love country music and I find most Republican politicians to be good, honest people who care about this country. However, to be intellectually honest, I find a the very idea of a recited pledge from a very young age to be a somewhat archaic and totalitarian practice. And, don't get me wrong, I understand the desire to protect it-- but I would argue fundamentally that it's not worth protecting.
You want to protect something? Protect free speech. Don't let the ACLU rip paintings of Jesus Christ out of public libraries. Don't actively prevent students from joining spiritual groups in their high schools-- even if a teacher is involved. And don't force students to recite a nationalistic pledge.
Yuck, country music?
I don't really see what liking country music has to do with being patriotic.
Man I have great memories driving my old truck at 4:30 in the morning to the paper factory for a hard days work, just blaring all kinds of country. It's one thing I've never liked about the policy world is that everybody gets prejudice towards a little bit of twang and simple, wholesome country music.
I'll tell you what I like about country lyrics too. They are no bullshit. No gothic metaphors, no melodramatic attempts to write something ridiculously meaningful-- just honest lyrics about living a simpler life. I could blast "My Town" right now
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A
Amaris
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That's actually exactly what I was trying to do, but it ended up being more distracting than clever.
Well, I wasn't being serious (aside from the fact that I genuinely hate country music). I was actually going to make a comment about the ACLU, but I figured it would derail the thread into a debate about the positives and negatives of the organization and that seemed a bit unnecessary. So, instead I made a joke as a music snob and that ended up derailing the thread 
Well, I wasn't being serious (aside from the fact that I genuinely hate country music). I was actually going to make a comment about the ACLU, but I figured it would derail the thread into a debate about the positives and negatives of the organization and that seemed a bit unnecessary. So, instead I made a joke as a music snob and that ended up derailing the thread
I definitely wasn't completely demonizing the ACLU-- they do a lot of good work, but I've found some attacks on harmless Christian traditions rather excessive at times.
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