I like The Burn..... But I was also wondering this.

[fireproof78]

I'll take interesting character development over boring technological development in my action adventure series about people in space.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Lets compare:
The Dominion is essentially an empire run by scared changelings who FORCE other species into submission and rule through fear. They don't promote equality, freedom (or seemingly creativity), etc.
The 24th century UFP is an organization comprised of over 150 alien species who freely cooperate with each other, share resources, knowledge, technology (among other things), and are exploring the galaxy.

The Dominion hasn't changed much in how it worksin 2000 years nor does it encourages innovation, exploration and discovery. In fact the dominion tries to prompt 'innovation' through 'fear'... which is not a good tool for getting the creative juices flowing because fear more frequently ends up paralyzing you rather than being able to make you think clearly.

In that sense, I can see the Dominion's rate of technological progression to be much slower than the Federation by quite a bit... they merely had a bigger head start, and given how old the Changelings are, its possible the conquered planets weren't very technologically developed to begin with.

The UFP doesn't work like that.
You're talking about cooperative alliance of over 150 alien species vs an empire which forces 'minor species' (which are generally not as advanced) into submission.
The rate of developments between the Dominion and UFP would be different by about 150 to however many species the Dominion 'conquered' in 2000 years of its existence.. and Weyoun described the UFP as 'vast' .... which points to the possibility that the Dominion is not the same size as UFP, but much smaller.

The UFP allows alien species to retain their independence, but does require they meet certain standards on a planetary scale prior to joining.

And, funny you should mention the Vulcans, because Humans were already established on Enterprise series as being much faster in terms of technological advancement and overall change... and since UFP was kinda their idea, it stands to reason they would encourage similarly fast advancements throughout all UFP member worlds.

I would disagree that the Dominion's culture prevented them from being innovative. We see multiple times in DS9 that this is not the case. The Dominion were centuries ahead of the Federation in terms of weapons, transporters, shipbuilding and genetic engineering. The ships were so advanced that Starfleet were only shown to have a surface knowledge of how they actually worked. My point in using the Dominion is to show that just because a culture has been around for an x amount of years that they have to or should meet some sort of technological checklist. I don't think the assumption can be made that Warp drive in the 32nd century is exactly the same as it was in the 23rd - 24th centuries. It clearly isn't given that the Federation had a presence near Hima which based on dialogue, was possibly in the Beta Quadrant and thousands of light years from Federation space. Personally, I think warp drive in the 32nd century is a lot faster, but Starfleet is rationing dilithium and might have a 'warp speed limit' unless of emergencies.

You make a fair point in that the Federation are explorers and a more advanced form of propulsion would be a priority but not if that form of propulsion was dangerous to use or came at a moral or ethical cost. All we know is that 'none were viable' but that doesn't mean that the UFP didn't use Quantum slipstream or coaxial warp for a period of time. Maybe they did use QSD ow CWD but it was damaging to subspace. Maybe they trialed another type of propulsion that outright destroyed a region of subspace like the Gorn are purported to have done. We know at some point the UFP were using transwarp tunnels but they seem to be inherently dangerous to use. Maybe it was easier to make Warp drive faster and safer to subspace and that is where the UFP focused research until the Vulcans proposed SB19.

Personally, I don't find the fact that the UFP isn't using QSD or something similar as boring. Trek is at it's worst when it gets bogged down by technological minutiae as it so often did during the 90's. I'm finding the post-apocalyptic regression and the impact that has had far more interesting than is the UFP had been some unrelatable technological nirvana.

 

[Deks]

I would disagree that the Dominion's culture prevented them from being innovative. We see multiple times in DS9 that this is not the case. The Dominion were centuries ahead of the Federation in terms of weapons, transporters, shipbuilding and genetic engineering. The ships were so advanced that Starfleet were only shown to have a surface knowledge of how they actually worked. My point in using the Dominion is to show that just because a culture has been around for an x amount of years that they have to or should meet some sort of technological checklist. I don't think the assumption can be made that Warp drive in the 32nd century is exactly the same as it was in the 23rd - 24th centuries. It clearly isn't given that the Federation had a presence near Hima which based on dialogue, was possibly in the Beta Quadrant and thousands of light years from Federation space. Personally, I think warp drive in the 32nd century is a lot faster, but Starfleet is rationing dilithium and might have a 'warp speed limit' unless of emergencies.

I never said the Dominion wouldn't be able to innovate. I said their rate of development would have been SLOWER compared to humanity and UFP at large.

The Dominion were NOT centuries ahead of UFP in anything (but were maybe a bit ahead in regards to metalurgy as they were able to create a solid neutronium door by the end of the series - which was quite stupid when you think the rest of the building was made out of regular material and the fact UFP had a Planet Killer made of solid Neutronium sitting idle for over a century which they had to study - technically, with that kind of a treasure trove, the UFP should have been able to reverse engineer Neutronium entirely in the 20 years since encountering the planet killer - but its as if the thing never existed).

Dominion simply had better intel and relied on automation more for fast ship construction (the Federation has automation, replicators and overall highly advanced methods of construction that should have been as fast or faster than the Dominion).

The Federation also had pretty advanced cloning capabilities, but as we know, they don't use those on ethical grounds... similar to how UFP doesn't tend to use kamikaze runs (whereas the Dominion finds Jem'Hadaar soldiers and ships as mostly 'expendable').
And the UFP was said it was able to keep up with the Dominion ship building (barely - but it DID).
If the Dominion was centuries ahead in anything, the war would have been over before it began and they wouldn't have needed help from the Cardassians or the Breen for that matter - and we know this wasn't the case.
For crying out loud, the Dominion had issues disarming self-replicating mines.

If you recall, when the Jem'Hadaar were first encountered, they mentioned they destroyed ships and a Bajoran colony in the GQ.
We know the Dominion takes prisoners, captures technology and actively LIES (or doesn't share info) about capturing prisoners. When Garak asked the female changeling if anyone from the Cardassian/Romulan invasion force survived, she said no one did... and yet we've seen Garak's father and a Romulan in a Dominion prison after that.

From this, we can conclude the Dominion captured a few AQ ships in the first 2 years of the Wormhole started being used... they studied both SF and alien species databases (which probably contained plethora of useful data on AQ species, weapons, shields, technology, etc.) to modify their weapons so they would be effective.

The UFP did the same when they captured that damaged Jem'Hadaar ship... although in fairness, the USS Defiant's shields were already pretty effective against Polaron beams (and this was years before SF had a chance to capture a damaged Dominion attack ship).

So, no real technological advantage... just better intel.

You make a fair point in that the Federation are explorers and a more advanced form of propulsion would be a priority but not if that form of propulsion was dangerous to use or came at a moral or ethical cost. All we know is that 'none were viable' but that doesn't mean that the UFP didn't use Quantum slipstream or coaxial warp for a period of time. Maybe they did use QSD ow CWD but it was damaging to subspace. Maybe they trialed another type of propulsion that outright destroyed a region of subspace like the Gorn are purported to have done. We know at some point the UFP were using transwarp tunnels but they seem to be inherently dangerous to use. Maybe it was easier to make Warp drive faster and safer to subspace and that is where the UFP focused research until the Vulcans proposed SB19.

The reference about the Gorn destroying subspace tells me they were experimenting with the Omega molecule instead and couldn't contain it (or Booker could have referred to something else). Voyager managed to actually contain the Omega molecule with help of 7 of 9 using a harmonic resonance chamber... but Janeway (supposedly) deleted her logs of those events (which I very much doubt actually happened - also the crew still knows what they did and how the technology works - so technically, if Starfleet wanted, they COULD technically harness and use Omega molecule safely).

Warp travel 'damages' subspace in the 24th century, but we know SF instigated rules about lowering Warp speed, and supposedly, the UFP modified Warp drives to they wouldn't produce this effect anymore (seeing how Voyager used rotating nacelle pylons which were unofficially mentioned to prevent damage to subspace) - in fact, I don't see Warp drive as being damaging to subspace past the 5 to 10 years ... maybe slightly more after that TNG episode aired because that would have been enough time for UFP to devise a solution.

The thing about QSD and CWD... Booker mentioned lack of Benamite crystals, but we know SF could synthesize them in the late 24th century... it simply took 'years' to make them at the time. I find it VERY implausible that after VOY returned, the whole UFP wouldn't be able to find a solution to this issue in a mere 10 to 20 years span (5 years even)... it simply doesn't make sense when you think about how UFP functions overall.

As for CWD - that was forgotten by the next episode, but Tom Paris DID make it work on a shuttle. In order to justify this somehow, I guess we could say the technology couldn't be adapted to a large ship like Voyager at the time, and Steth's stolen ship was a prototype (also small in size). Again, SF would have a working FTL technology which they would have to adapt to larger ships... and this would technically be doable in 10 to 20 odd years.

But FTL as such isn't the center point of the Burn... power generation is (aka, dependence on Dilithium and M/AM). Again, we were shown multiple highly advanced and powerful power generators in VOY which never required Dilithium and M/AM and of which the crew had DETAILED sensor scans of (and even inactive pieces/samples of technology - the Borg TW coil comes to mind).

To think SF never changed their power generation for something better is preposterous, especially if they knew how problematic dilithium mining is and that this isn't an infinite substance.
Other alien species used advanced power generators without dilithium... and SF had scans and actual hardware to use to build their own.
Voyager crew was able to reverse-engineer QS technology in days/weeks from Arturis ship... and made a more advanced/faster version 4 months later.
You cannot possibly tell me that the whole UFP with its massive resources wouldn't be able to perfect Voyager's attempts in a year or two... less than 5 (and I've given them 10 to 20 years above just to be 'generous').
Heck, those TW conduits we saw in Picard and Discovery should have in fact been ones created by the Federation itself (they certainly had the means)... but noooo.

The 32nd century had programmable matter. They can LITERALLY make anything they want using that technology (next to replicators) So, for benamite crystals to be a substance they cannot make on the fly with minimal effort in the 32nd century after the Burn is a bit stupid when you consider the fact programmable matter is used EVERYWHERE in the 32nd century.

Personally, I don't find the fact that the UFP isn't using QSD or something similar as boring. Trek is at it's worst when it gets bogged down by technological minutiae as it so often did during the 90's. I'm finding the post-apocalyptic regression and the impact that has had far more interesting than is the UFP had been some unrelatable technological nirvana.

I find it boring and idiotic because Trek writers hadn't bothered moving the needle by much at all in the 32nd century, and its as if only about 50 years actually passed since Voyager returned... not over 800 freaking years.
The writers have 0 sense of how much time that is for science and technology to progress to levels that would effectively make Disco crew feel like proverbial cavemen in comparison.

 

[Deks]

I'll take interesting character development over boring technological development in my action adventure series about people in space.

Nothing says you cannot make a highly advanced technological setting (radically expand on what was presented on previous shows and mix in real life hypothesis and theories too) and create interesting character development at the same time.
But as we both know, Trek has an issue with writing coherently in an advanced setting which lead to numerous things being dumbed down too often or 'conveniently ignored'

There's nothing wrong in asking of Trek to evolve and become better than it was... but apparently, the network execs keep hiring writers who are either incompetent or just aren't allowed to do this.
And while I agree network execs meddled in the past, Trek supposedly has a lot more free range to do as it pleases today than it did before.

 

[Spot261]

Nothing says you cannot make a highly advanced technological setting (radically expand on what was presented on previous shows and mix in real life hypothesis and theories too) and create interesting character development at the same time.
But as we both know, Trek has an issue with writing coherently in an advanced setting which lead to numerous things being dumbed down too often or 'conveniently ignored'

There's nothing wrong in asking of Trek to evolve and become better than it was... but apparently, the network execs keep hiring writers who are either incompetent or just aren't allowed to do this.
And while I agree network execs meddled in the past, Trek supposedly has a lot more free range to do as it pleases today than it did before.

It seems to me those writers have different priorities to you rather than being incompetent. Those things are not one and the same.

For many of us warp drive is simply a couple of words to gloss over the impractically large distances between key galactic locales rather than a central point of interest. Replace it with slipstream or quantum banana peels if you like but nothing substantial changes. Our heroes keep on being our heroes much as they ever did.

However, consider an alternative position. The UFP of the 32nd century could just as easily be expected to have regressed as progressed. Many real world examples could be raised here and I'm not sure your argument that the UFP as a cooperative and open society should be expected to not only reliably progress but do so faster than others is really the given you treat it as. Technological innovation is often tied to adversity and competition, most obviously in the case of warfare.

We know little of intervening events and what impact they may have had but certainly a post burn galaxy could well have stagnated or even deteriorated technologically.

 

[fireproof78]

Nothing says you cannot make a highly advanced technological setting (radically expand on what was presented on previous shows and mix in real life hypothesis and theories too) and create interesting character development at the same time.
But as we both know, Trek has an issue with writing coherently in an advanced setting which lead to numerous things being dumbed down too often or 'conveniently ignored'

There's nothing wrong in asking of Trek to evolve and become better than it was... but apparently, the network execs keep hiring writers who are either incompetent or just aren't allowed to do this.
And while I agree network execs meddled in the past, Trek supposedly has a lot more free range to do as it pleases today than it did before.

It's not incompetence.

 

[fireproof78]

It literally got handwaved by the show that created it.

That's been a part of Trek so often it is now a feature not a bug.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

That's been a part of Trek so often it is now a feature not a bug.

Indeed. Yet some seem to think Discovery invented it.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Indeed. Yet some seem to think Discovery invented it.

That is only because they don't like Discovery. It's still Star Trek no matter what people whine about.

 

[fireproof78]

Indeed. Yet some seem to think Discovery invented it.

New Trek is in a nearly impossible position. It has completely to feel like old Trek while being new and innovative. It is not allowed to make mistakes since current production teams must learn all past mistakes from past production teams while spending a ton of time making sure to research all details so as not to contradict past Trek. And everything must be done to perfection, while not repeating any missteps that do not fit with Trek's optimistic future.

Now, go write an entertaining show.

 

[publiusr]

Matter-antimatter annihilation is 100 percent conversion of mass to energy. The only better option would be vacuum energy, if it's even possible to harness that.

ZPE...it is said that a thimble full would boil away Earth's oceans. The only way Nomad could be as powerful as it was.

It's a myth that all technologies become obsolete. We still use fire. We still use string.

I cannot thank you enough for pointing that out Christopher. In terms of real space, methalox is considered "new" tech and cleaner hydrogen-oxygen rockets are called "obsolete." It drives me up the wall.

 

[Spot261]

ZPE...it is said that a thimble full would boil away Earth's oceans. The only way Nomad could be as powerful as it was.



I cannot thank you enough for pointing that out Christopher. In terms of real space, methalox is considered "new" tech and cleaner hydrogen-oxygen rockets are called "obsolete." It drives me up the wall.

A rocket should do rather better than merely driving you up a wall.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The thing about the Dominion was that they were watching the Federation before the Wormhole was discovered so clearly there's something afoot there. I also always took the Dominion to be significantly more advanced than the Federation which was why the only reason they "won" was because it was an Alliance of Alpha Quadrant and Beta Quadrant races PLUS the fact that the majority of the Dominion's forces were trapped on the other side of the Wormhole.

 

[at Quark's]

I liked the concept of the burn, even though of course the narrative theme of trying to rebuild a golden era isn't exactly original (then again, what is these days?) .

I thought its supposed direct cause (as revealed towards the end of the 3rd season) was plain stupid, however. Well, perhaps no more stupid than the entire concept of the spore drive, so in that sense it's in fine Discovery tradition

Regardless, it entertained me, and that's what I watch Star Trek for.

 

[Deks]

I liked the concept of the burn, even though of course the narrative theme of trying to rebuild a golden era isn't exactly original (then again, what is these days?) .

I thought its supposed direct cause (as revealed towards the end of the 3rd season) was plain stupid, however. Well, perhaps no more stupid than the entire concept of the spore drive, so in that sense it's in fine Discovery tradition

Regardless, it entertained me, and that's what I watch Star Trek for.

I have to say I was disappointed with the Burn's cause.
Then again, a lot of things in real life turn out to be relatively 'underwhelming' with causal factors (aka, they are far from 'grandiose')... but I would have liked to see how the UFP in the 31st century (prior to the Burn) was a Type III and on its way of becoming Type IV civilization fast, and that the Burn was caused by a Type IV civilization from half a universe away (by sending a signal or a specific wave across the mycelial network disabling pre-Type IV civilizations in our part of the universe and most methods of power generation and FTL which those civilizations used - which saw the UFP rate of advancement as dangerous/threatening.

If that were to have happened, the Burn would have affected new power generation and FTL propulsion that UFP was using in the 32nd century (Dilithium and M/AM along with Warp drive would have stopped being used in say early 25th century and went through different FTL and power generation technologies in the interim - maybe using a 'blend' of Coaxial, Slipstream, advanced Warp and Transwarp technologies to create a new form of FTL - and power generation could have been the safely hanessed Omega molecule, Thermionic generators and/or Tetrion reactors.

I just think this kind of story would have given us a more 'deserving' advanced setting befitting of the 32nd century (with crazier everyday technologies even - say personalized TW beaming across the galaxy, used for transporting materials, resources, rebuilding fast, etc.)... and Discovery would have arrived in the nick of time because they use the Spore Drive and have better understanding of the Mycelial network and how to potentially stop the attacks... or something to that effect (lets say their specific configuration of the drive makes them immune to the attacks and would still be upgraded and sent on a diplomatic mission across the universe to find the civilization in question and try to stop the attacks with several other SF ships being upgraded with the spore drive - using the spores they grew on that planet in the 23rd century - nicely tying the past too).

It still somewhat bugs me that the writers never went back to the planet where Disco crew planted the spores (its a new power source at the very least for UFP at large which could have replaced Dilithium and M/AM - even if they can't use the Spore drive itself... they could use the spores for power generation at least).

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I have to say I was disappointed with the Burn's cause.
Then again, a lot of things in real life turn out to be relatively 'underwhelming' with causal factors (aka, they are far from 'grandiose')... but I would have liked to see how the UFP in the 31st century (prior to the Burn) was a Type III and on its way of becoming Type IV civilization fast, and that the Burn was caused by a Type IV civilization from half a universe away (by sending a signal or a specific wave across the mycelial network disabling pre-Type IV civilizations in our part of the universe and most methods of power generation and FTL which those civilizations used - which saw the UFP rate of advancement as dangerous/threatening.

If that were to have happened, the Burn would have affected new power generation and FTL propulsion that UFP was using in the 32nd century (Dilithium and M/AM along with Warp drive would have stopped being used in say early 25th century and went through different FTL and power generation technologies in the interim - maybe using a 'blend' of Coaxial, Slipstream, advanced Warp and Transwarp technologies to create a new form of FTL - and power generation could have been the safely hanessed Omega molecule, Thermionic generators and/or Tetrion reactors.

I just think this kind of story would have given us a more 'deserving' advanced setting befitting of the 32nd century (with crazier everyday technologies even - say personalized TW beaming across the galaxy, used for transporting materials, resources, rebuilding fast, etc.)... and Discovery would have arrived in the nick of time because they use the Spore Drive and have better understanding of the Mycelial network and how to potentially stop the attacks... or something to that effect (lets say their specific configuration of the drive makes them immune to the attacks and would still be upgraded and sent on a diplomatic mission across the universe to find the civilization in question and try to stop the attacks with several other SF ships being upgraded with the spore drive - using the spores they grew on that planet in the 23rd century - nicely tying the past too).

It still somewhat bugs me that the writers never went back to the planet where Disco crew planted the spores (its a new power source at the very least for UFP at large which could have replaced Dilithium and M/AM - even if they can't use the Spore drive itself... they could use the spores for power generation at least).

None of that is remotely interesting. I'm very glad the writers didn't go down the cliched and predictable path of having some advanced civilisation be threatened by the Federation and it's growth. To me the cause of the burn was straight out of TOS and whether people like it or not, at least they tried doing something completely different and in the true spirit of trek.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm glad that it didn't shatter Su'Kal's life when he learned he was the source of the Burn.

Although I'm sure it helped that Saru was around to help him get through that...

 

[Charles Phipps]

I think that was actually part of the "message" of DISCO that it was actually an attack on Conspiracy TheoryTM. It's one of the rare subtle bits of storytelling and could be entirely accidental unlike, "Make the Empire Great Again." Basically, everyone in the galaxy thinks some nefarious power or failed technological experiment is responsible for the Burn and it was actually some poor Charlie X-esque Kelpian's temper tantrum.

Sort of like Covid being a bioweapon.

 

[fireproof78]

None of that is remotely interesting. I'm very glad the writers didn't go down the cliched and predictable path of having some advanced civilisation be threatened by the Federation and it's growth. To me the cause of the burn was straight out of TOS and whether people like it or not, at least they tried doing something completely different and in the true spirit of trek.

Indeed. That's the more interesting idea. Not Omega, not a superweapon but a child who ended up wrong place, wrong time.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

None of that is remotely interesting. I'm very glad the writers didn't go down the cliched and predictable path of having some advanced civilisation be threatened by the Federation and it's growth. To me the cause of the burn was straight out of TOS and whether people like it or not, at least they tried doing something completely different and in the true spirit of trek.

And that is why I like the Burn.. It is a very TOS kind of idea.