And the staff position of Fleet Captain, doing some research on Fleet Captain, right now it appears to have been a staff position on an Admirals staff. Wished they'd fleshed out Fleet Captain during TOS!
James
James
I Like Commodores!
- Thread starter Red Ranger
- Start date
Lets not go crazy.
Link, or it didn't happen.
Well friend if I could link to the sites that I'm using there's a tiny problem, I don't know if non-members can access the sites.
1 site is THE AGE OF NELSON the other has to do with Patrick O'Brian, I'm not very good at cutting and pasting but I'll see What I can do be patient with me.
James
You know they also had Commodores in Ent.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture was the end of the Commodore rank. James T. Kirk should have been a Commodore, but he is addressed as Admiral and has the one star of a Rear Admiral (lower half). At least they didn't give him three stars like they did Janeway in Star Trek: Nemesis by making her a full admiral.
Don't you mean FOUR stars?
My mistake if she has four stars. I could only see three in the screen capture I was looking at. She should have been Commodore Janeway in Nemesis.
From: "Don Seltzer" <timoneer@GMAIL.COM>
> Commodores second class differed from a senior captain only in the flying of the pennant. Commodores first class were temporary flag officers, receiving the pay and required to wear the uniform of a rear admiral. They ranked above all other post captains, but after the junior most rear admiral.
>
> Captains of the Fleet were a similar temporary posting, usually given to either a rear admiral or a very senior captain. If a captain by rank, he also took the pay and uniform of a rear admiral, and ranked just above any commodores, but after the junior most rear admiral.
>
And that is what I meant about experts, James.
Rick and Adam and Don are just three examples of why we call this The List of the World. It is very hard to ask a serious question about *anything* without finding several people who don't just know how to talk about that subject, but actually know what they're talking about.
Gary
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> Commodores second class differed from a senior captain only in the flying of the pennant. Commodores first class were temporary flag officers, receiving the pay and required to wear the uniform of a rear admiral. They ranked above all other post captains, but after the junior most rear admiral.
>
> Captains of the Fleet were a similar temporary posting, usually given to either a rear admiral or a very senior captain. If a captain by rank, he also took the pay and uniform of a rear admiral, and ranked just above any commodores, but after the junior most rear admiral.
>
And that is what I meant about experts, James.
Rick and Adam and Don are just three examples of why we call this The List of the World. It is very hard to ask a serious question about *anything* without finding several people who don't just know how to talk about that subject, but actually know what they're talking about.
Gary
To be removed from the GUNROOM list send a blank message to UNSUBSCRIBE-GUNROOM@HMSSURPRISE.ORG (Please remove this message when replying)
A few more tidbits on the post of Captain of the Fleet.
1. They were only appointed to fleets of 10 or more ships.
2. Although they were typically a rear admiral, or a senior captain
temporarily given the rank of rear admiral, they had the power to
issue orders to more senior admirals, within the following conditions:
'All Orders or Instructions issued by the Captain of the Fleet are to
be given as the Orders, &c. of the Commander in Chief, and they are to
be obeyed by all persons to whom the Fleet as they are addressed, as
well by those who are senior to, or of higher rank than, the Captain
of the Fleet, as by others.
But he is never to issue an order for any general regulation, nor to
make any change in the arrangement of the Fleet, without directions
from the Commander in Chief; nor to alter, without his permission, the
temporary position of the Fleet, by Signal or otherwise, unless some
evident necessity require it.'
3. If the CiC were to die, the Captain of the Fleet would continue in
the same position, under whichever admiral was next in seniority. If
the Captain of the Fleet happened to be the next ranking officer, he
would assume command of the fleet, and could appoint another officer
to be his Captain of the Fleet.
4. What happens if a Commodore happens to join up with a ship
commanded by a captain who is senior to him on the list? It seems
that the senior captain is now in charge, and gets to fly his own
broad pennant for as long as they are together.
5. Captains of the Fleet and Commodores first class were considered
flag officers when it came to dividing up prize money. At the Battle
of Cape St Vincent, there were four admirals, the Captain of the
Fleet, and Commodore Nelson to split the flag's share. I think that
Nelson might have done a bit better if he were a mere captain.
Don Seltzer
***
1. They were only appointed to fleets of 10 or more ships.
2. Although they were typically a rear admiral, or a senior captain
temporarily given the rank of rear admiral, they had the power to
issue orders to more senior admirals, within the following conditions:
'All Orders or Instructions issued by the Captain of the Fleet are to
be given as the Orders, &c. of the Commander in Chief, and they are to
be obeyed by all persons to whom the Fleet as they are addressed, as
well by those who are senior to, or of higher rank than, the Captain
of the Fleet, as by others.
But he is never to issue an order for any general regulation, nor to
make any change in the arrangement of the Fleet, without directions
from the Commander in Chief; nor to alter, without his permission, the
temporary position of the Fleet, by Signal or otherwise, unless some
evident necessity require it.'
3. If the CiC were to die, the Captain of the Fleet would continue in
the same position, under whichever admiral was next in seniority. If
the Captain of the Fleet happened to be the next ranking officer, he
would assume command of the fleet, and could appoint another officer
to be his Captain of the Fleet.
4. What happens if a Commodore happens to join up with a ship
commanded by a captain who is senior to him on the list? It seems
that the senior captain is now in charge, and gets to fly his own
broad pennant for as long as they are together.
5. Captains of the Fleet and Commodores first class were considered
flag officers when it came to dividing up prize money. At the Battle
of Cape St Vincent, there were four admirals, the Captain of the
Fleet, and Commodore Nelson to split the flag's share. I think that
Nelson might have done a bit better if he were a mere captain.
Don Seltzer
***
I believe Shatner & Nimoy expressed a similiar POV early on in their commentary for the Star Trek IV DVD. "Commodore Kirk" has a GREAT ring to it, IMO.
I may be wrong but I believe there may have been a Commodore in the crowd when Kirk was demoted to Captain in Star Trek IV.
If I find the picture I'm thinking of I'll yell!
James
Captains of the Fleet grew out of the RN practice c. 1700 of allowing an extra captain to an admiral to share some of the work of commanding a large fleet. The same basic position is still around today, but is now called the Chief of Staff. In the Grand Fleet in WW1, Admiral Jellicoe had both a Chief of Staff, a rear admiral, and a Captain of the Fleet, a commodore 1st class. The CoS handled operations, and the CotF handled materiel and maintenance. At sea, the CinC, CoS and CotF took turns on watch on the flag bridge.
The US Navy in the 1800s had the same position, but called it "Fleet Captain." In the much smaller US service, the Fleet Captain often wasn't a captain in rank. Farragut's Fleet Captain Henry Bell, for instance, who raised the Stars and Stripes over New Orleans, was a commander at the time.
--Justin
The US Navy in the 1800s had the same position, but called it "Fleet Captain." In the much smaller US service, the Fleet Captain often wasn't a captain in rank. Farragut's Fleet Captain Henry Bell, for instance, who raised the Stars and Stripes over New Orleans, was a commander at the time.
--Justin
I found a picture of a Commodore in Star Trek IV at Spike's Star Trek Web Site, if you can find it look in Starfleet Uniforms-2278-2350, Ranks.
James
James
My bad, I thought you were referring to the "star system" of ranks in use in the real world and correlating that to Janeway's rank.
I did not realize you were referring to the in-universe rank insignia.
Oops! sorry, missed this bit. Yep - I agree that it was a bit strange to see him promoted two pay steps to Rear Admiral.
However, I like to think of it as further proof that there was an unseen 2nd 5-year mission, during which time Kirk commanded the Enterprise as a Commodore - which gives him ample time to have distinguised himself enough to earn a promotion to Rear Admiral...
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