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I like Captain Janeway
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
- Start date
But those acton scenes had Bujold been cast might have shifted to another character i.e Chakotay. The writers would have written around . It can be hard to imagine another actor playing a role when we simply put them into the role as written.
Thank you! I hadn't watched that reunion before and it was so much fun!! They are such a funny group...Star Trek Voyager 20th Reunion - Space City Comic Con 2015
-> here, only Wang talks about the famous bridge's scene.
Enjoy watching! It's very funny, believe me!
So Bujold had problems with technobabble and did an 'independent film take' of 'Engage!' That is brilliant - but probably not brilliant in terms of the casting...
I love Mulgrew as Janeway. One of my favourite Trek characters. I also find myself agreeing with her most of the time when people think she is 'crazy' (Tuvix, Equinox etc). I think she is a great character who has been placed in a situation far, far more difficult than anything the other captains had to face. She isn't perfect and she feels the strain of the pressure.
Mulgrew really does wonderfully with her. She is so commanding, strong, yet also warm, caring and likeable.
Mulgrew really does wonderfully with her. She is so commanding, strong, yet also warm, caring and likeable.
So true. In In fact, as well Janeway as Mulgrew, is authoritarian, caring and a sometimes,unpredictable. Both were meant to meet each other and they did, for our greatest pleasure!
I think it's possible to liken Janeway a little with Laura Roslin in BSG. Both are often accused of being authoritarian but we see how and why they might make such decisions, how the extremity of their circumstances and the demands of leadership mean that sometimes, questionable moral choices must be made because no one else is going to make them and they have to keep their people together, keep them alive, keep them going.
Its not explicitly shown but there is plenty of evidence that what Janeway has to do weighs heavily on her.
This has nothing to do with Voyager, but Laura Roslin... wasn't she a politician and didn't she die at some point, in Battlestar Galactica?
Yeah she was the president and
she died right at the end.
It was pretty explicitly shown in Night.
THANK YOU, DamarsKanar, for your reply.
About these both characters, I'd say that except the fact that they were
shown further exploring the controlling/responsible authority* - compared to their male colleagues working on the same jobs - to command respect, until sometimes, taking some (very) controversial decisions going against their own principles, they had a different personality (just by the fact that Roslin was a seasoned politician while Janeway, was a seasoned captain) and fate BUT, not less likeable and even friendly.
No problem!
Yeah I would say perhaps the main difference is that really, Roslin was not planning to be president (she was 17th in line or something, but the apocalypse happened and she was the only one left alive so she was thrust into the job!). Janeway was a seasoned captain, although to be fair, she didn't plan to go to the Delta Quadrant! But of course, as a captain of a Starship, I believe Janeway has a more military stance than Roslin ever did (Roslin's military/male counterpart was Adama, who had to take charge of the war decisions in BSG) - Janeway has to be both military commander AND leader of her people in every other way. She has an even harder task, perhaps.
But I love both characters a lot. Not because they are perfect - both make very tough decisions that are questionable. But because they are competent while being realistically flawed. They are both outstanding characters who represent women in authoritative positions in desperate circumstances and neither of them are caricatures of perfect leadership, or terrible role models either. Plus they do both have a 'friendly', warm and caring side as well as being very hard-line and tough in the bad times.
I always thought Janeway was cool. She had the look, presence and personality. I tend to think she was put in some unusual situations and if she was to get her crew out of the DQ safely and get home within their lifetime, she would have take wild chances.
I always wondered why people say she was mentally unstable or inconsistent. I'm actually curious, not skeptical, because there might be something to the claim, I just don't see it.
And Kate Mulgrew is hilarious in Orange is the New Black.
I always wondered why people say she was mentally unstable or inconsistent. I'm actually curious, not skeptical, because there might be something to the claim, I just don't see it.
And Kate Mulgrew is hilarious in Orange is the New Black.
Nightdiamond, I’m new here on the Forum. I recently began re-watching Voyager (watched it first run, as I did Original Trek back in the day). I have been browsing here and saw your question “why people say she [Capt Janeway] was mentally unstable or inconsistent.” You sound genuinely curious, and I don’t see any other responses, so if you don’t mind, I can offer a few of my own perspectives. Please forgive the length, I’ve been thinking about the topic lately.
To begin with, I liked Kate Mulgrew from when she was on Ryan’s Hope and felt she made a delightful Captain Janeway for the most part: strong, intelligent, confident, commanding, as well as nurturing and playful as appropriate. However, there were also occasional moments or episodes that gave me pause about her judgment or leadership skills, and over time there seemed to be recurring concerns.
I think the first trait that underlies some of her flaws is Janeway’s obsession to get Voyager home. Certainly that motivation could be a neutral or even an admirable quality, but in some episodes, it rises to the level of Capt Ahab Obsession. This obsession underlies those episodes when Janeway’s boldness crossed into the realm of being reckless IMO, including the many times she orders their entrance into hostile space, even after they’ve been warned to stay out. Obsession underlies her questionable plan to forge an alliance with the Borg.
Chakotay as first officer would try to warn her, “even the eagle knows when to rest”, “you don’t know when to step back.” At times she would seem to get the memo, but then you have “Equinox” where her obsession becomes the capture and punishment of Capt Ransom and his crew, to the point of almost killing their prisoner.
The episode “Night” where in the beginning Janeway has isolated herself for weeks from the rest of the crew, tells us clearly that Janeway’s guilt for her decision to destroy the Array and strand them in the Delta Quadrant, has created in her a somewhat unhealthy mental state. While I don’t believe they directly address this in later episodes, we have to assume that guilt is still there and fuels her obsession to get home.
Another flaw that emerged on occasion and can be linked specifically with her obsession in “Equinox”, was Janeway’s tendency to arrogance or self-righteousness, which sometimes fed an authoritarian leadership style. “Emanations” and “Sacred Ground” come to mind for her superior attitude. These episodes at least showed some growth or more open-mindedness in the captain by the end. “Alliances” was the worst, however, because after she herself contributed to the sabotaging of the proposed alliance with the Kazon, she returns to being just as rigid in her espousing of Starfleet Knows Best principles. Her speech at the end comes off to me as quite insulting to Chakotay, who originally proposed seeking an alliance, as well as to Tuvok who could see the logic and strength of developing hybrid ship policies.
Some have seen inconsistency in that within a year and a half, Janeway engages in her own enormously risky alliance with the Borg, far worse as a threat than the inept Kazon. Through the rest of the show, Voyager engages in numerous temporary alliances and trades of technology.
The arrogance crops up now and then, but I think its culmination finds expression in the Admiral Janeway of “Endgame”.
Perhaps her nurturing side and Chakotay’s moderating influences, as well as the balancing of her scenes with other characters, allowed me to overlook those negative qualities early on. She wasn’t always that way, fueling at least some of the accusations of inconsistency. But in any case, in the later two seasons as Janeway, Seven, and the doctor received more focus and screen time, the captain’s flaws became more pronounced. Not even Kate Mulgrew could save her for me as Janeway grew less appealing and more grating to me towards the end. Chakotay had been written to be her moral compass for awhile, so when his opposition disappears, her decisions seem even more arbitrary and eccentric. “Memorial” comes to mind where Janeway summarily declared they would fix the memorial beacon sending out memories of the massacre, rather than dismantle it as her emotionally wounded senior officers wanted to do.
To be clear, I don’t look at human flaws in the captain as necessarily a bad thing, if these traits are recognized as flaws that need addressing in her character arc. For example, I looked for a moment of introspection at the end of “Unimatrix Zero”, hoping Janeway would realize she almost bit the Big One and got her crew assimilated as well. Instead, she acted like John Wayne.
One of the misguided directions they took Janeway IMO was her increasing embrace of holograms as persons. Full disclosure, I never bought into the attempt to make holograms a stand in for oppressed societies. To me they are computer programs that can and should be fixed if they are unhappy or not fulfilling their created purpose. That is another discussion I don’t want to get into here per se. What was egregious to me was that on at least two occasions, Janeway puts the welfare of holograms above the lives of her flesh and blood crew members.
First example, letting the doctor leave the ship to pursue a singing career in “Virtuoso” made Janeway look very foolish IMO. To allow their only doctor/surgeon to leave puts her crew’s lives at risk in future medical emergencies. Medics and assistants cannot provide the same level of expertise for the more serious needs. Now maybe if Janeway had mentioned to someone, “He’ll be back. And if not, we’ll go get him,” I would say OK. Otherwise, she’s a terrible captain! There is also a secondary reason she should not allow him to go, though it may seem controversial to those who love the doctor. As captain of Voyager she is responsible and accountable for the physical properties of the ship that were put into her trust. The EMH program is part of Voyager’s original inventory. Whether people like it or not, the EMH program is Starfleet property.
“Spirit Folk” is another example of when Janeway put the human lives of Tom and Harry at risk in order to save a hologram character she is emotionally attached to. I was glad to see B’Elanna and Seven arguing for the shutting down or deleting of the Fair Haven holoprogram. Chakotay doesn’t say too much, but his concern in that scene and when Janeway’s bartender appears on the bridge, shows that when he encouraged the captain to have fun, he didn’t expect her to get emotionally involved.
Again, her decisions alone are not the problem, but the fact that they are never confronted honestly, and she informed (realistically speaking) that at least some segment of the crew is losing confidence. What someone does discreetly is one thing, but when the captain indulged in a fairly public romance with a hologram, I could see myself, if I were a crewman, looking about for a suitable planet where I could jump ship. J
“Renaissance Man” had the Janeway inconsistency that bothered me the most. Previously, the captain had come down hard on Tom Paris for disobeying a direct order in “30 Days”, busting him down to Ensign and giving him 30 days in the brig. She came down hard on Harry Kim for disobeying her order to break off his relationship with the alien girl. In this episode, the doctor disobeyed the captain’s order, attacked various senior officers, and jettisoned and lost Voyager’s warp core, which could have stranded them in the Delta Quadrant. These were far worse offenses than either Paris or Kim committed, yet the doctor was given barely a slap on the wrist. She can’t have it both ways. If she thinks of him as a person and crewman, he should suffer similar consequences. At the very least IMO, he should no longer be trusted with the ECH command codes, unless a human transfers them to him.
Anyway, I hope this satisfies some of your curiosity on the question. I can only speak for myself, of course. I will say that I still like Captain Janeway overall, but I also see problems with her character. If you would like to respond or discuss further, I would enjoy that also.
To begin with, I liked Kate Mulgrew from when she was on Ryan’s Hope and felt she made a delightful Captain Janeway for the most part: strong, intelligent, confident, commanding, as well as nurturing and playful as appropriate. However, there were also occasional moments or episodes that gave me pause about her judgment or leadership skills, and over time there seemed to be recurring concerns.
I think the first trait that underlies some of her flaws is Janeway’s obsession to get Voyager home. Certainly that motivation could be a neutral or even an admirable quality, but in some episodes, it rises to the level of Capt Ahab Obsession. This obsession underlies those episodes when Janeway’s boldness crossed into the realm of being reckless IMO, including the many times she orders their entrance into hostile space, even after they’ve been warned to stay out. Obsession underlies her questionable plan to forge an alliance with the Borg.
Chakotay as first officer would try to warn her, “even the eagle knows when to rest”, “you don’t know when to step back.” At times she would seem to get the memo, but then you have “Equinox” where her obsession becomes the capture and punishment of Capt Ransom and his crew, to the point of almost killing their prisoner.
The episode “Night” where in the beginning Janeway has isolated herself for weeks from the rest of the crew, tells us clearly that Janeway’s guilt for her decision to destroy the Array and strand them in the Delta Quadrant, has created in her a somewhat unhealthy mental state. While I don’t believe they directly address this in later episodes, we have to assume that guilt is still there and fuels her obsession to get home.
Another flaw that emerged on occasion and can be linked specifically with her obsession in “Equinox”, was Janeway’s tendency to arrogance or self-righteousness, which sometimes fed an authoritarian leadership style. “Emanations” and “Sacred Ground” come to mind for her superior attitude. These episodes at least showed some growth or more open-mindedness in the captain by the end. “Alliances” was the worst, however, because after she herself contributed to the sabotaging of the proposed alliance with the Kazon, she returns to being just as rigid in her espousing of Starfleet Knows Best principles. Her speech at the end comes off to me as quite insulting to Chakotay, who originally proposed seeking an alliance, as well as to Tuvok who could see the logic and strength of developing hybrid ship policies.
Some have seen inconsistency in that within a year and a half, Janeway engages in her own enormously risky alliance with the Borg, far worse as a threat than the inept Kazon. Through the rest of the show, Voyager engages in numerous temporary alliances and trades of technology.
The arrogance crops up now and then, but I think its culmination finds expression in the Admiral Janeway of “Endgame”.
Perhaps her nurturing side and Chakotay’s moderating influences, as well as the balancing of her scenes with other characters, allowed me to overlook those negative qualities early on. She wasn’t always that way, fueling at least some of the accusations of inconsistency. But in any case, in the later two seasons as Janeway, Seven, and the doctor received more focus and screen time, the captain’s flaws became more pronounced. Not even Kate Mulgrew could save her for me as Janeway grew less appealing and more grating to me towards the end. Chakotay had been written to be her moral compass for awhile, so when his opposition disappears, her decisions seem even more arbitrary and eccentric. “Memorial” comes to mind where Janeway summarily declared they would fix the memorial beacon sending out memories of the massacre, rather than dismantle it as her emotionally wounded senior officers wanted to do.
To be clear, I don’t look at human flaws in the captain as necessarily a bad thing, if these traits are recognized as flaws that need addressing in her character arc. For example, I looked for a moment of introspection at the end of “Unimatrix Zero”, hoping Janeway would realize she almost bit the Big One and got her crew assimilated as well. Instead, she acted like John Wayne.
One of the misguided directions they took Janeway IMO was her increasing embrace of holograms as persons. Full disclosure, I never bought into the attempt to make holograms a stand in for oppressed societies. To me they are computer programs that can and should be fixed if they are unhappy or not fulfilling their created purpose. That is another discussion I don’t want to get into here per se. What was egregious to me was that on at least two occasions, Janeway puts the welfare of holograms above the lives of her flesh and blood crew members.
First example, letting the doctor leave the ship to pursue a singing career in “Virtuoso” made Janeway look very foolish IMO. To allow their only doctor/surgeon to leave puts her crew’s lives at risk in future medical emergencies. Medics and assistants cannot provide the same level of expertise for the more serious needs. Now maybe if Janeway had mentioned to someone, “He’ll be back. And if not, we’ll go get him,” I would say OK. Otherwise, she’s a terrible captain! There is also a secondary reason she should not allow him to go, though it may seem controversial to those who love the doctor. As captain of Voyager she is responsible and accountable for the physical properties of the ship that were put into her trust. The EMH program is part of Voyager’s original inventory. Whether people like it or not, the EMH program is Starfleet property.
“Spirit Folk” is another example of when Janeway put the human lives of Tom and Harry at risk in order to save a hologram character she is emotionally attached to. I was glad to see B’Elanna and Seven arguing for the shutting down or deleting of the Fair Haven holoprogram. Chakotay doesn’t say too much, but his concern in that scene and when Janeway’s bartender appears on the bridge, shows that when he encouraged the captain to have fun, he didn’t expect her to get emotionally involved.
Again, her decisions alone are not the problem, but the fact that they are never confronted honestly, and she informed (realistically speaking) that at least some segment of the crew is losing confidence. What someone does discreetly is one thing, but when the captain indulged in a fairly public romance with a hologram, I could see myself, if I were a crewman, looking about for a suitable planet where I could jump ship. J
“Renaissance Man” had the Janeway inconsistency that bothered me the most. Previously, the captain had come down hard on Tom Paris for disobeying a direct order in “30 Days”, busting him down to Ensign and giving him 30 days in the brig. She came down hard on Harry Kim for disobeying her order to break off his relationship with the alien girl. In this episode, the doctor disobeyed the captain’s order, attacked various senior officers, and jettisoned and lost Voyager’s warp core, which could have stranded them in the Delta Quadrant. These were far worse offenses than either Paris or Kim committed, yet the doctor was given barely a slap on the wrist. She can’t have it both ways. If she thinks of him as a person and crewman, he should suffer similar consequences. At the very least IMO, he should no longer be trusted with the ECH command codes, unless a human transfers them to him.
Anyway, I hope this satisfies some of your curiosity on the question. I can only speak for myself, of course. I will say that I still like Captain Janeway overall, but I also see problems with her character. If you would like to respond or discuss further, I would enjoy that also.
This was great!!
Captain Sandy from "Below Decks" reminds me of a real life Captain Janeway. Hannah, of course, is my favourite on the show, though ...
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Agreed. I think it was an excuse to bring in male characters. She had Chakotay's shoulder to cry on, Tuvok for wisdom and even Leonardo Divinci
How often was Janeway maniacal? Equinox? Unimatrix Zero-she made a big risk and arguably a dumb one but she wasn't maniacal about it, she negotiated with the Hirogen, she punished her crew, she forgave members of her crew, she was always diplomatic with aliens even when she had cause to be cautious, she handled the Devore and Kashyk with tact and cunning, she was willing to sacrifice her crew for the Undine(a bad decision but a principled one), and more than often she acted level headed, competent, and with composure.
She did sometimes make foolish or questionable decisions, and yes on one or two occasions she lost her cool and behaved more irrationally.
But for seven years under very difficult circumstances she held herself together in a way a lot of other captains probably could not.
She did sometimes make foolish or questionable decisions, and yes on one or two occasions she lost her cool and behaved more irrationally.
But for seven years under very difficult circumstances she held herself together in a way a lot of other captains probably could not.
That was very well researched, I'm impressed
I personally find it hard to fault Janeway so I'm sorry not to be able to offer much back but this made for interesting reading.
