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I have a bit of a problem with La'an being bullied (And Spock in st2009)

The 23rd century was never supposed to have "evolved sensibilities." I mean Spock being bullied as a child goes all the way back to TOS, it was mentioned to have happened in Journey to Babel and we actually see it happen in TAS Yesteryear. There's nothing wrong with SNW showing kids as bullies, nor is it inconsistent with what has been previously established. Besides, even in the utopian 24th century we know kids still bully each other, case in point B'Elanna on Voyager.
Your Penmen-ship is important along with reading/writing in cursive IMO.
Cursive writing is no longer a thing. It's becoming less and less relevant in today's world. Hell, I'm thinking I was one of the last generations to be taught it. And even then, I remember in elementary school they told us "everyone has to know it when you're grown up" but by the time I made it to junior high, no one bothered with it anymore. Indeed, I think I was seven or eight when I was taught it. My nephew is now ten and he has no idea what cursive writing even is. Indeed, a few months back my parents were actually shocked and appalled to learn that my nephew had no idea what cursive writing even meant.

I even remember an episode of Pawn Stars where they dismissed an autograph as fake because it was in cursive to which Rick said "no one does that anymore."
 
The 23rd century was never supposed to have "evolved sensibilities." I mean Spock being bullied as a child goes all the way back to TOS, it was mentioned to have happened in Journey to Babel and we actually see it happen in TAS Yesteryear. There's nothing wrong with SNW showing kids as bullies, nor is it inconsistent with what has been previously established. Besides, even in the utopian 24th century we know kids still bully each other, case in point B'Elanna on Voyager.

Yep.

Utopias are bullshit. Star Trek, when it's been good, has not been about Utopia any more than any other popular fiction is.
 
I don't believe children in the 23rd century would do that. Like, in the present day, if I made a paper plane that didn't fly properly, someone might say "I can make my plane better than yours". But someone with more evolved sensibilities might say "Your center of gravity is off, and your wing tips need to be further back". Even children in the 23rd century don't do "I can run faster than you" or "My dad could lick your dad".

Most people aren't familiar with mechanistic science or how behavior is influenced by the environment.
For that matter, even Trek writers make the same mistake.
The UFP is supposed to be sort of equivalent to RBE/TVP as proposed by Jacke Fresco, but I'd say they are closer to still being somewhat 'stuck' in the 'transitional' stage and hadn't gone full RBE (since Trek portrayed UFP as still having people in power and prisons).

Rodenberry was exposed to J.F. and RBE concepts but Trek never fully fleshed it out (and, because Trek is written by different writers, not all are familiar with those concepts or behavior arises).

Also I agree that kids in the 23rd (or even late 22nd century) would NOT be harrassing other kids.

The notion that 'kids are 'kids' or that 'greed is a product of being human' is just nonsensical, and not an explanation.

People notice these patterns of behavior across the globe yes, but what they fail to realize that most of the globe lives under the same socio-economic system which creates those behavioral patterns (which as you noted yourself, they will assume are 'ingrained' into humans from birth - and we know they aren't).

People ignore the fact (or more to the point, don't know) that if you changed the environment (and educational system) under which people live to a radical extent, behavior would also undergo radical change.

That's unfortunate, because they are.

The notion that we might evolve or reform ourselves into angels is a pernicious lie expressed way too often in Star Trek. The relative lack of this stuff in SNW is one of the best things about it.

That makes no sense.
Greed is a result of living in an environment/soci-economic system which GENERATES the conditions which allow for such behavior to occur.
Greed, selfishness, competitiveness... we ARE NOT born like this from the get go... these are LEARNED patterns of behavior that arise from the system and cultures in which we live.
We are in fact, victims of culture.
And because the global population lives under (fundamentally) SAME socio-economic system, those patterns of behavior will arise in other parts of the world too... but we are also seeing that in countries where there is ACTIVE effort to educate the populace and raise kids differently, DIFFERENT patterns of behavior emerge.

Bullies will exist no matter the upbringing.

Children will be children. They’re not old enough to know better yet.

No offense, but this is another response which completely ignores mechanistic science of human behavior, epigenetics and neuroscience.

We have tons of examples from real life which demonstrate that kids do NOT tease other kids if they are raised in an environment that doesn't prompt that kind of behavior.

Behavior doesn't arise in a vacuum, and as such, teasing doesn't arise in a vacuum. Its LEARNED.

Kids are mini humans with a similar potential for understanding.
If you don't educate a child to behave in a certain capacity, then you leave them mostly open to the other environmental factors to shape their behavior and responses.

You think a child is incapable of understanding things?
Of course not.
A child (much like an adult) doesn't understand something because no one told them the correct answer to things (and they can end up confused because of this).

Most adults and parents are clueless about how the natural world works. On top of that, a LOT of parents don't have TIME to spend with their kids.
There is one consistent factor with kids... they ask a lot of questions. Many parents are already overworked and stressed and don't have the time to deal with their kids questions.
If a child asks a parent why is the sky blue... and they tell them its because gases and particles in Earth's atmosphere scatter sunlight in all directions, and blue light is scattered more than other colors because it travels as shorter, smaller waves... it might spur off another question such as 'why'.
And then that answer will prompt another 'why'... and so on and so on.
Most adults get fed up with this line of questioning because they can't be bothered and/or because they don't know (usually, its a combo of things).

This is where problems start to arise (at least partly).
You may think a child's behavior is a result of them 'just being human' but that reply by its definition has no merit whatsoever.
Its not an explanation... so instead of saying syou don't know, you say 'they're human'.

Kids would be better off if parents made the effort and acknowledged to kids if they don't know something when being asked a whole bunch of questions.
They should answer to the best of their ability, say 'I don't know' on things they don't and encourage them to go discover what the answers are together.

When my sister's kids kept asking me question and all the 'why's' started coming in... I had time, so I answered to the best of my ability.
I also said to them 'I don't know' on certain ones and went with them to look up what the answers are. I even suggested to my sister to do a similar thing, but alas, she and her husband had busy schedules so they couldn't really do this most of the time.
 
Exactly the same here.

This only goes to show that kids are 'abandoned' to the rather violent environment and that lack of education is part of the issue here.
When you live in a socio-economic system grounded around competition, cost efficiency, profits, and artificially induced scarcity, the system you live in is rife with conditions which give rise to problematic patterns of behavior.

Yep.

Utopias are bullshit. Star Trek, when it's been good, has not been about Utopia any more than any other popular fiction is.

UFP was NEVER a utopia.
Utopia is a fallacy and could never exist. What UFP was made out to be in the 24th century was nothing more than a BETTER system than what we have.
Doing so does NOT create a utopia... it just means that they found a way to resolve those problems and have moved on.

To a person from several centuries ago... we would appear to live in a utopia.

Problem here is that people think solving the problems we have today (for which we had the means to do decades ago btw) would create a system where problems of any kind wouldn't exist.
That's not accurate.
Solving the problems of today would fundamentally change human behavior and environment in which we live, but the problems of tomorrow would be something like 'how can we further improve the living standards of everyone while simultaneously, reducing our footprint on the environment'... or 'what would be the best way to clean up the trash in Earth's orbit'... or 'whats' the best approach to colonizing the solar system', etc.

So problems would still exist... they would simply be problems of a different kind... and we wouldn't have as many (or any) interpersonal issues either.

To many this may seem inconceivable, but mainly because they don't know any better and because they grew up in an environment which taught them that no other way is possible.
 
Greed is a result of living in an environment/soci-economic system which GENERATES the conditions which allow for such behavior to occur.
Greed, selfishness, competitiveness... we ARE NOT born like this from the get go... these are LEARNED patterns of behavior

Seriously?

'Mkay...

Self-regulation and reciprocity are learned patterns of behavior from living with other people. Biologically, human beings, like all life, experience only momentary satiety of the drive to consume.
 
The shows are meant to be relatable to modern audiences

I've said it before that Trek should be able to do better.
It's already using various aspects of real life science... so might as well extend this to human behavior.
 
The behavior sciences are built on less solid foundations and are more prone to fashion than the physical sciences (which Trek writers also ignore at their whims).
 
Kids are gonna be kids.

And kids are bastards to each other.

Same 2000 years ago, same 2000 years from now. Even Vulcan kids are nasty dickheads to each other.

No offense, but repeating the same fallacy doesn't make it accurate.
Using the notion that 'kids are gonna be kids' is NOT an explanation... its a scapegoat argument with no substance or understanding behind how behavior is actually shaped.

We knew Vulcan kids were dicks as far back as both TOS and TAS. This is nothing remotely new.

For a species which bases its entire culture around logic and reason, the representation we got is highly illogical.
In short, Trek writers can be giant idiots when it comes to explaining behavior (among other things) and only did that to make things 'relatable' to humans in the real world (who grew up in the existing system which generates that kind of behaviors in adolescents).
 
But then Vulcans were explained in early TOS to have been warring savages just mere centuries before and the depiction of Vulcans as placid on the surface but ready to kill at the drop of a hat just below that veneer was consistent through both TOS and beyond. Vulcans have always been emotional dicks. They just learned to control most of those urges after nearly nuking themselves off their world.
 
No offense, but repeating the same fallacy doesn't make it accurate.

If you think the fact that kids can be shits to each other is a fallacy, I don't know what to say.

I work in the education sector and see it first hand everyday.

For a species which bases its entire culture around logic and reason, the representation we got is highly illogical.

It would be more illogical if Vulcan kids were walking around in a state of logical zen. We know Vulcans aren't born with a sense of logic instilled and we know that suppressing emotional responses is something they have to learn. Vulcan kids are still learning and naturally, being children, they are still emotionally developing while learning to suppress those emotions.

There's nothing weird about it.
 
But then Vulcans were explained in early TOS to have been warring savages just mere centuries before and the depiction of Vulcans as placid on the surface but ready to kill at the drop of a hat just below that veneer was consistent through both TOS and beyond. Vulcans have always been emotional dicks. They just learned to control most of those urges after nearly nuking themselves off their world.

Yes, we got that explanation indeed... and what do we also know of Vulcan as a planet?
Its a pretty harsh environment. Is it so problematic to logically conclude that early Vulcan behavior was so 'savage' BECAUSE they lived in a very inhospitable environment?

Look at what artificially induced scarcity does to humans today... or scarciry as it existed before we learned to create abundance via technology (which we artificially prohibit access to with money).

What we got from in universe explanation at face value is one thing... one other thing is that we saw what Vulcan as a planet is like (desert like, pretty harsh with some very dangerous animals to boot).
I am consistently surprised as to how people ignore this pretty giant elephant in the room (but then again they do the same in real life, so its not a real surprise).
 
If you think the fact that kids can be shits to each other is a fallacy, I don't know what to say.

I work in the education sector and see it first hand everyday.

No. I acknowledge the fact that kids are behaving as they do... my point is that 'kids will be kids' points to the fallacy that nothing will ever change this behavior (and this is nonsensical) because its evident not all kids behave like that, and in countries where there is active effort to raise and educate kids differently, showcase that if kids are being mean to other kids, its because they picked up this behavior elsewhere from the environment.

Behavior doesn't arise in vacuum. Its learned.
If you want to change human behavior, you need to change the environment in which humans live (along with how they are educated and other factors - in other words, address the cause of the problem... not the symptoms).
 
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