I grok Tuvok

[BlobVanDam]

That he never learned from any of the many, many, many, many incidents of annoying Tuvok makes him either a jackass or someone so damned stupid that he's far worse than a regular jackass.

And exodus, neither of those is really the same case at all. First of which, "among friends" is a key part of that first point which wasn't the case in VOY. If someone I didn't like to start with started calling me "Mr. Whitey", I'd have to fight myself pretty hard not to slap him silly. Secondly, as far as the food point, once you tell them that, they probalby won't ask you again. This is in contrast to Neelix who never learned anything from his interactions with Tuvok.

How would he learn? How many times did Tuvok ever correct him, or point out his error? (legit question, as I don't really feel like sifting through ~170 episodes of VOY to see how many times Tuvok called him out on it). Tuvok mostly ignored Neelix's mistakes, and Tuvok shows no discernible emotional response to work from, which is what a guy like Neelix would probably pick up on. Neelix is a friendly and diplomatic guy who probably tried to take an interest in everyone on the crew, since he was the chef to all of them, and de-facto "moral officer". Vulcans are a very different species to humans, and different to anything else he'd be used to dealing with in the DQ. What works for humans isn't going to work for Vulcans. So he learned from experience. When that experience gives you no feedback, you're going to continually fail. The "Mr Vulcan" thing was a silly nickname, but he never used it to be a jackass.

 

[RyuRoots]

You don't have to be a genius to recognize pretty obvious irritation, which is what Tuvok displays to Neelix's idiocy, more often than not.

And furthermore, something I forgot, singing the dirge knowing it's inappropriate is EXACTLY what Neelix did. Tuvok informs him of what it is, Neelix acknowledges it, jabs at Tuvok by saying it's the most cheerful thing his culture has and sings it, giggling. You have to either be a tremendous imbecile, a huge jerk, or a combination of the two to proceed in that way.

I'm not arguing that Neelix was consistently a jerk in VOY or portrayed that way, but he does have a few incidents where he really does borderline (and not so borderline) dickish crap and many incidents where he's an insensitive twit who deserves the business end of a sledge.

 

[BlobVanDam]

Well to be fair, Tuvok always looks irritated
And Tuvok points out that it's a funeral dirge. That makes no mention to it being inappropriate for Neelix to sing, only that it's not the situation it was intended for. He doesn't ask Neelix to stop, or mention that it's inappropriate. Maybe from our human perspective it's common sense that it's not something you otherwise sing, but Neelix isn't human, and Talaxians would have their own different customs. Maybe to him there's no problem with singing the song. He was not corrected. Maybe to him it's like if Tuvok said "That is a traditional birthday song". It's not the intended time for the song, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's offensive to sing it otherwise.
I think it's a stretch to assume he continues singing it to be a jerk or is just stupid. He's from an entirely different culture, interacting with someone who is also from an entirely different culture, and gives no emotional cues.

 

[henbane]

Too me what made Tuvok great was not only his tempered wisdom but his dry wit.
For a Vulcan, Tuvok was really funny.

Definitely agreed. He had a great subtlety to his delivery that walked the line perfectly between neutral and condescending. And he'd often deliver a great zinger that would be perfectly objective and logical, but humorous for a Vulcan. He was also quite a badass for a Vulcan.
For these reasons he is my favourite Vulcan.

Got to agree - Tuvok was a fantastic Vulcan -and his dry wit (very well delivered by Tim Russ) cracked me up all the time. Tuvok and Neelix had an "OddCouple" type of relationship which really worked well and was a great vehicle for demonstrating that Vulcans do have a heart afterall. Even his subtle interactions with Janeway were excellent in this respect. Fantastic character!

 

[JayTheTrekkie]

Tuvok was a awesome character (and Vulcan) for Voyager. He did a pretty good job at at it.

 

[Shatnertage]

Yeah, if Neelix doesn't get that he's being super-annoying, he's either totally clueless, or he's an absolute dick.

There was a guy who I worked with once, who was really cool--we had a lot of fun times together. But I learned pretty early on that some nights you just left him alone. He didn't even have to say anything--I could just tell from his body language that he wasn't in the mood to joke around. And I respected that.

You'd think that being cooped up with the same people for seven years, you'd learn to develop those skills pretty well...but on the other hand a group of people respecting each others' boundaries would make pretty boring TV.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

Wow, I wasn't expecting Neelix-hate here. I guess I haven't seen all seven seasons yet to be able to understand all these comments. I have seen where Tuvok doesn't appreciate Neelix's company and conversation. But I haven't seen him kick Neelix out or ask him to leave. Tuvok seems to be a well-disciplined person who knows Neelix doesn't have the same reserve. He would like Neelix to get a hint, but Neelix doesn't disrupt his ability to perform his duties, so he doesn't really care.

 

[F. King Daniel]

You'd think they'd understand each other a little better after the events of "Tuvix"

 

[kimc]

I just realized today that VOY is the second Star Trek show to include a Vulcan in the main cast. I've come to realize how much I missed Vulcans in Trek. I really admired Spock in TOS.

Being a huge Spock fan myself I was really excited to have a full Vulcan at the start of Voyager. Unfortunately, Tuvok didn't get used as much as I would have liked to have seen but all the same Tuvie rocks.

 

[exodus]

That he never learned from any of the many, many, many, many incidents of annoying Tuvok makes him either a jackass or someone so damned stupid that he's far worse than a regular jackass.

And exodus, neither of those is really the same case at all. First of which, "among friends" is a key part of that first point which wasn't the case in VOY. If someone I didn't like to start with started calling me "Mr. Whitey", I'd have to fight myself pretty hard not to slap him silly. Secondly, as far as the food point, once you tell them that, they probalby won't ask you again. This is in contrast to Neelix who never learned anything from his interactions with Tuvok.

First off, you aren't Vulcan. So being Tuvok, you wouldn't have an emotional reaction to anything Neelix did regardless. The civil thing to do would be ignore him.(Hello, this is Star Trek) What makes you think Neelix had to learn something from Tuvok and not Tuvok learning to be more flexable from Neelix? Most of their parings had Tuvok coming away learning how to lighten up.
You're argument is Neelix didn't respect Tuvok.
So for the entire journey Neelix tried to win the approval of a man he didn't respect? Sought his advice from parenting to security. Took full responsibility of Tuvok and nursed him back to health when he suffered memory loss but this is interpreted by you as having no respect.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Wow, I wasn't expecting Neelix-hate here.

I don't hate him! In fact I'm quite fond of his comic qualities. I saw Ethan Phillips recently at a con, went there because of Neelix and got his autograph and skipped Brent Spiner.

He is supposed to be annoying, that's why varying characters end up annoyed with him. No reason for the viewer to hate him for it.

 

[henbane]

That he never learned from any of the many, many, many, many incidents of annoying Tuvok makes him either a jackass or someone so damned stupid that he's far worse than a regular jackass.

And exodus, neither of those is really the same case at all. First of which, "among friends" is a key part of that first point which wasn't the case in VOY. If someone I didn't like to start with started calling me "Mr. Whitey", I'd have to fight myself pretty hard not to slap him silly. Secondly, as far as the food point, once you tell them that, they probalby won't ask you again. This is in contrast to Neelix who never learned anything from his interactions with Tuvok.

It seems you missed the subtleness and humour in the relationship between Neelix and Tuvok. They actually liked each other and "Mr Vulcan" was just a nickname.

Sure they learnt from each other - you can always learn from someone who enters your life. It's extremely arrogant and ignorant to think that you can't. Anyone who doesn't has just missed one of life's greatest opportunities.

 

[lau03143]

I really liked Tuvok in the series and liked his interactions with Neelix!

Neelix was on the wind up, deliberately trying to get a reaction out of Tuvok, try to get him to laugh or even just react a little!

 

[exodus]

Sure they learnt from each other - you can always learn from someone who enters your life. It's extremely arrogant and ignorant to think that you can't. Anyone who doesn't has just missed one of life's greatest opportunities.

This is great wisdom.

 

[CoffeeAddict]

^ Agreed. There is something to be learned from every situation.

 

[lurok]

Wow, I wasn't expecting Neelix-hate here.

He is supposed to be annoying, that's why varying characters end up annoyed with him. No reason for the viewer to hate him for it.

this...

Definitely agreed. He had a great subtlety to his delivery that walked the line perfectly between neutral and condescending. And he'd often deliver a great zinger that would be perfectly objective and logical, but humorous for a Vulcan. He was also quite a badass for a Vulcan.
For these reasons he is my favourite Vulcan.

Say Word!!

Thirded.

and this. Nuff said.

 

[exodus]

He is supposed to be annoying, that's why varying characters end up annoyed with him. No reason for the viewer to hate him for it.

Exactly.
Then again, many Trek fans hate many of the child actors on Trek just because they find them annoying.
They're just kids.
Folks used to send Wil Wheaton hate mail when he was on Trek as if he was an adult. He was a kid and he had grown adults telling him he sucked. That's sick.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I completely agree. Hate the producer for choosing to have a kid on the series if you don't like it, don't ate the child actor!

 

[henbane]

There was an actress on Aussie TV called Vivean Gray - brilliant and capable actress. She specialised in roles where she played the busybody neighbourhood gossip (non-judgemental of course!) in very popular Aussie soaps like The Sullivans and Neighbours.

She was so good at the roles that she received nonstop hate mail, directed at the characters for many years. She couldn't even walk down the street or do shopping without being abused and even physically attacked by "fans" of the shows.

This attention lead to her retirement and she moved/returned to a remote area in the UK where she now has nothing to do with TV and leads the life of a recluse.

"Fans" should be ashamed of this behaviour - and it only serves to demonstrate that some "fans" are unable to distinguish between a person and the character they portray.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Terrible terrible stuff. It amazes me.


http://www.perfectblend.net/neighbourhood/pro/gray-vivean.htm

"Playing the formidable Mrs Mangel - a part that echoed her Ida Jessop character - Vivean became a star overnight. Mrs Mangel became an icon and fans loved to hate her for her meddling ways, but sadly the success of Vivean's work meant she often faced abuse from viewers who couldn't understand the difference between actors and characters. In 1987, Vivean commented "You've just got to have a sense of humour about the whole thing, and rationalise it by saying at least the character is working! It certainly wouldn't be good for your morale if people came up to you and said they liked your character when she's supposed to be a real baddie". Sadly after two years playing Nell Mangel, the harassment Vivean was receiving proved to be too much and she decided to leave Neighbours and retire from acting altogether."