i don't know how i feel about chakotay...

[DevilEyes]

Right, I had sort of forgotten about the alleged lil' Chakotay, Jr. back in the Kazon days. Chakotay definitely deserves some respect for trying to do right by his kid.

It occurs to me that Chakotay probably has many other redeeming characteristics, especially the sort that have to do with being a nice guy and having good ethics and so forth. But Chakotay's a quiet sort of character to start with, and when he's in a scene with the outgoing Janeway (and Mulgrew's intense stage presence), nobody notices the quiet guy.

It's possible to be quiet and stoic and still strong and interesting. Chakotay could have been a great character, if they hadn't made him so laid-back and a yes man. Even in those episodes where he actually stands up to Janeway, he is never ready to follow it through - as in "Equinox", when he says he would have been "out of line" to mutiny against Janeway. For crying out loud, this guy was a Maquis leader! Did the writers just forget about that? He resigned from Starfleet to join a terrorist group in order to fight for what he thought was right. So why is he acting like a good, obedient Starfleet officer? The character should have been a lot more intense and ready to stand up to the authority, he should have been an equal to Janeway - he had had 1/3 of the crew under his command (and yes, the Maquis should not have become good Starfleet officers by episode 3, or even by the end of season 1) - not her lapdog; they should have butted heads a lot in the first couple of seasons, but grew to respect each other (more like Adama and Roslin in BSG). And even in the later seasons, Chakotay should have been ready to really challenge Janeway when she was doing what he considered deeply wrong (as in Equinox), despite his respect and affection for the captain. That would have made the dynamic a lot more interesting.

And of course, if you're going to refer to his background and include his spirituality/faith in his characterization - and there's nothing wrong with that in itself - find some writer who has a clue about Native American traditions and beliefs, and who won't make it a mess of New Age cliches.

Finally, I know that a few people here will disagree, but I don't think that Beltran had the right presence, and he was never really that good in the role, even before he started sleepwalking through it. I haven't seen him in anything else so I don't know if he's otherwise a good actor as some people say, but based on VOY, I was less than impressed.

 

[Withers]

He resigned from Starfleet to join a terrorist group in order to fight for what he thought was right. So why is he acting like a good, obedient Starfleet officer? The character should have been a lot more intense and ready to stand up to the authority

I honestly think the writers of the show took on too complex a task with the Chakotay character. As in "Hey, wouldn't it be fascinating to create a character with a terrorist background not dissimilar to Kira's but have him be kind and stoic as opposed to fiery and brazen?" I think if they had written that character Chakotay would have been awesome and would have contrasted Tuvok very nicely. I think what happened is writers stopped focusing on the emphasis of either half or how they could successfully unify in a character and what we got was an actor portraying a cardboard cut out of himself.

I want to say, for the record, Robert Beltran was excellent on Big Love. He was both creepy and intimidating (probably having something to do with the fact that he put on like 500 lbs and his hair was long and gray but still...)

-Withers-​

 

[teya]

See my signature for my opinion on what Jeri Taylor did to Chakotay.

I'm really glad I'm not the only one who was incensed by that particular aspect of his character. If ever there were an example of Trek writers being racially/culturally/historically insensitive through lack of imagination Chakotay's non-drug inducing miracle peace rock was it. That it even exists in the STU is still enough to make my guts churn a little. I guess it shouldn't really be a surprise though; he's a show that had a lot of difficult differentiating between technology and straight up magic.

-Withers-​

It's not even the "peace rock" as you call it that bothers me so much. It's that it's such a mish-mash. They couldn't even give the poor man a tribe.


And it doesn't take much research or imagination to figure out that for people from collective cultures, the collective identity (i.e. the tribe) is as important to their own identity as their individual identity.


What's especially egregious to me is the notion set forth in "Tattoo" that we're descended from space aliens. In other words, we are not completely human.


Yeesh.

 

[exodus]

See my signature for my opinion on what Jeri Taylor did to Chakotay.

I'm really glad I'm not the only one who was incensed by that particular aspect of his character. If ever there were an example of Trek writers being racially/culturally/historically insensitive through lack of imagination Chakotay's non-drug inducing miracle peace rock was it. That it even exists in the STU is still enough to make my guts churn a little. I guess it shouldn't really be a surprise though; he's a show that had a lot of difficult differentiating between technology and straight up magic.

-Withers-​

It's not even the "peace rock" as you call it that bothers me so much. It's that it's such a mish-mash. They couldn't even give the poor man a tribe.


And it doesn't take much research or imagination to figure out that for people from collective cultures, the collective identity (i.e. the tribe) is as important to their own identity as their individual identity.


What's especially egregious to me is the notion set forth in "Tattoo" that we're descended from space aliens. In other words, we are not completely human.


Yeesh.

It's not the "we're not completely human" aspect that bothers me as much as the "Brown skinned people would have never had the intelligence to create the great amazing things they did if aliens hadn't given them the know how".

That's a very racist concept.

 

[teya]

I'm really glad I'm not the only one who was incensed by that particular aspect of his character. If ever there were an example of Trek writers being racially/culturally/historically insensitive through lack of imagination Chakotay's non-drug inducing miracle peace rock was it. That it even exists in the STU is still enough to make my guts churn a little. I guess it shouldn't really be a surprise though; he's a show that had a lot of difficult differentiating between technology and straight up magic.

-Withers-​

It's not even the "peace rock" as you call it that bothers me so much. It's that it's such a mish-mash. They couldn't even give the poor man a tribe.


And it doesn't take much research or imagination to figure out that for people from collective cultures, the collective identity (i.e. the tribe) is as important to their own identity as their individual identity.


What's especially egregious to me is the notion set forth in "Tattoo" that we're descended from space aliens. In other words, we are not completely human.


Yeesh.

It's not the "we're not completely human" aspect that bothers me as much as the "Brown skinned people would have never had the intelligence to create the great amazing things they did if aliens hadn't given them the know how".

That's a very racist concept.

Amen!

 

[data_lover]

since this is the chakotay threat i started, i thought i would share my eight year old daughter's views on chakotay while watching "coda" tonight.

her: "so kathryn's dead? but i don't want chakotay to be captain, he doesn't know what he's doing."
me: "he graduated starfleet."
her: "whatEVER! he still doesn't know what he's doing."

she makes me giggle.

 

[RyuRoots]

since this is the chakotay threat i started, i thought i would share my eight year old daughter's views on chakotay while watching "coda" tonight.

her: "so kathryn's dead? but i don't want chakotay to be captain, he doesn't know what he's doing."
me: "he graduated starfleet."
her: "whatEVER! he still doesn't know what he's doing."

she makes me giggle.

Oh man, that is priceless. Also, I think you mean thread unless Beltran is laying siege to TrekBBS.

 

[Mareika]

since this is the chakotay threat i started, i thought i would share my eight year old daughter's views on chakotay while watching "coda" tonight.

her: "so kathryn's dead? but i don't want chakotay to be captain, he doesn't know what he's doing."
me: "he graduated starfleet."
her: "whatEVER! he still doesn't know what he's doing."

she makes me giggle.

That`s great!

But wait, if your daughter is older, maybe 20 years old, then she may like Chakotay.

 

[T.D. Possum]

Priceless. Smart kid ya got there.

Ooooh, I seem to be more anti-Chakotay today than usual. My apologies.

 

[kimc]

since this is the chakotay threat i started, i thought i would share my eight year old daughter's views on chakotay while watching "coda" tonight.

her: "so kathryn's dead? but i don't want chakotay to be captain, he doesn't know what he's doing."
me: "he graduated starfleet."
her: "whatEVER! he still doesn't know what he's doing."

she makes me giggle.

Too funny.

 

[ProStar]

Chakotay couldn't have provided conflict with Janeway all the time. The crews were possibly facing 70+ years to get back to federation Space. So chakotay couldn't piss janeway as Voyager was a fast, safeifish ship with facilities that the crew would need, I am partly glad that Chakotay wasn't just a riker clone. Riker was a by the book comander who only objected at time, but Chakotay was relaxed most of the time then Riker who was sterner first officer, while Chakotay was a a friend to most of the crew. Infact the enterprise only had the upper command kept there fships to just them with only a few stories exstending to lower crew members. I know voyager had a similar theme with just the command staff but they tried and included the lower crew. Voyager was 10x smaller then the enterprise and they did become a more evidently family crew

 

[Withers]

Chakotay couldn't have provided conflict with Janeway all the time. The crews were possibly facing 70+ years to get back to federation Space. So chakotay couldn't piss janeway as Voyager was a fast, safeifish ship with facilities that the crew would need, I am partly glad that Chakotay wasn't just a riker clone. Riker was a by the book comander who only objected at time, but Chakotay was relaxed most of the time then Riker who was sterner first officer, while Chakotay was a a friend to most of the crew. Infact the enterprise only had the upper command kept there fships to just them with only a few stories exstending to lower crew members. I know voyager had a similar theme with just the command staff but they tried and included the lower crew. Voyager was 10x smaller then the enterprise and they did become a more evidently family crew

I don't know why everybody looks at Riker and says Chakotay couldn't have been him. I think he was too much like Riker in that he agreed a little too easily and was a little too enamored with Janeway. Why doesn't anybody look at the Sisko/Kira relationship as the example of how to tell a good story between a Starfleet Captain and a potentially hostile first officer? If they had played Kira as the roll-over-do-nothing Chakotay was... well, I just don't want to think about that.

-Withers-​

 

[Guy Gardener]

A scene I think which would have been hilarious...

"Tuvok, can you teach me archery?"

"but you said that your tribe did not use the bow."

"Yes, but I'm getting really tired of explaining to people why i don't live up to their clichéd expectations. it would just be easier to learn how to shoot."

 

[T.D. Possum]

I don't know why everybody looks at Riker and says Chakotay couldn't have been him. I think he was too much like Riker in that he agreed a little too easily and was a little too enamored with Janeway. Why doesn't anybody look at the Sisko/Kira relationship as the example of how to tell a good story between a Starfleet Captain and a potentially hostile first officer? If they had played Kira as the roll-over-do-nothing Chakotay was... well, I just don't want to think about that.

-Withers-​

In a way, Kira was as emotionally attached to Sisko as Chakotay was to Janeway. Chakotay had (IMO) his unrequited romantic love for Janeway, but Kira was a religious person who revered Sisko as a spiritual leader.

I think that one of the reasons it was always exciting to watch Kira and Sisko butt heads was that we got to see Kira trying to deal with the fact that the man she held in such esteem was ordering her to do a thing that she personally thought was wrong. Since she was passionate about her own beliefs, and extremely devoted to Sisko, it made for considerable and interesting internal conflict.

When I was thinking about all that, I got to thinking about how Chakotay shows a distinct lack of conviction when he does disagree with Janeway. (Keep in mind, please, I'm only up to Season 4. I know the gist of what happens in Equinox, and I'm hoping when I actually watch that episode, Chakotay will do better than I've seen him do so far.)

Specifically, I think Chakotay totally wussed out in Scorpion. Pretty much the only emotion I saw in him there was: "Huh, sorry I made you all sad and stuff, Kathryn." It would have been exciting to see Chakotay actually push Janeway to the point where she was wondering if he would try to relieve her of command. Alternatively, it would have been interesting if he continued with her plan, despite his disagreement, out of loyalty to her (professional or personal loyalty, or both). As it was, he seemed to take the easy way out by going along with her until she was in a coma and then counteracting her orders. That didn't do much to increase my respect for him.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

For those of us who know exactly what we think of Chakotay. ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzDHjI4z6EY

 

[USS Renegade]

I don't know, I think Chakotay was exactly what Voyager needed in an XO. I agree that he did do double duty as XO and Ships Councilor.

I don't know that I would call him the best XO, but I couldn't see any of the other XO's pulling off Chakotay's job. Kira and Janeway would have clashed too much. Spock and Riker, well, lets face it. They would have locked Janeway in the brig and taken command of the ship at some point.

I will say this though, were I a starship captain, I would take Chuckles as my XO over anyone but Spock.

 

[Kai Winn]

I don't know why everybody looks at Riker and says Chakotay couldn't have been him. I think he was too much like Riker in that he agreed a little too easily and was a little too enamored with Janeway. Why doesn't anybody look at the Sisko/Kira relationship as the example of how to tell a good story between a Starfleet Captain and a potentially hostile first officer? If they had played Kira as the roll-over-do-nothing Chakotay was... well, I just don't want to think about that.

not at all. i can't recall a single episode where riker challenged picard (might have missed one), but chakotay quite frequently disagreed with janeway, most memorably perhaps in equinox, and there was the potential for a maquis rebellion aboard voyager for some time too. i enjoyed that he wasn't a squaller like riker or sisko, but a calm, nice, and soft-spoken man. rewatched 'alice' earlier this week where he had to instruct tom who popped up in his office in an exotic flight suit and with a beard about some regulations, he did in in a relaxed way. about 'tom, why don't you have a shave and wear the uniform? we have regulations.' a riker or sisko would have roared 'LIEUTENANT, I ORDER YOU TO SHAVE AND WEAR YOUR UNIFORM AT ONCE!!!' i believe he had the exactly right qualities to be accepted as commanding officer by the starfleet crew, who certainly had some prejudices against the former terrorist.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But Chakotay disagreed with Janeway in Equinox because she was quite possibly becoming insane... I thought it was a little more grey when he disobeyed her last orders before she comaed out in Scorpion as he tried to burn their bridges with the Borg she'd spent so much time building.