I do not like MCU films

[Anwar]

That's an aside with no direct comment on the Hydra infiltration, and regrading the Battle of New York, the WSC's launching a nuclear missile at Manhattan (and the unprecedented mass death it would have caused) should have been a solid, tonal continuity change for all MCU characters--super-powered or not, but that entire matter (remember...it was a nuclear missile fired at Manhattan) was unrealistically swept away in favor of dealing with Project Insight. Long before Civil War, the MCU should have been in the grip of a fever of anger and paranoia about these shadowy "global caretaker" organizations deciding from (their version of) "On High" to annihilate mass populations without so much as safeguard or counter, other than Fury & Iron Man's attempt to stop it.

You're assuming that the WSC's role in this was made public, things were chaotic enough most of the people in NYC wouldn't have realized what was happening or that a nuke got fired at them.. Plus Hydra itself would've been working hard to keep people from asking questions.

But, it was--apparently--more important to just jump to Civil War, with its focus on superheroes being the problem, than "complicate" the MCU by moving the story in the natural direction of the world not trusting clearly dangerous organizations.

Not complicate things, just keep focus on the MCU Heroes. Because MCU is about the heroes, not the villains.

Why not have both, and steer the MCU in a believable direction, rather than halfway with the only logical movements happening in TWS / CW? Too dark for those who want G.I. Joe / Star Wars-ian quips and just moving on to the next set up for big fights?

No, because there's not much of a story there for the heroes and internal conflict.

Comic readers expected more generations ago, and movie audiences--like those criticizing certain parts of the MCU, also expect that.

No, they expect the heroes to all wear black leather and for all fantastical elements to be stripped away.

Barely. The plot was overflowing with cartoon fights with flying robots, a pointless, emotion-free death of Quicksilver and another big spectacle to end the film..oh, and yet more Easter eggs about Infinity.

If you dislike the wondrous, maybe.

Two, many of the Marvel movies have been blasted as being hollow, illogical or inspiring yawns.

Mainly by those who hate the wondrous and go for that bankrupt "grounded" stuff.

When this era of superhero films is long gone, I will bet you that the path of the DC films with weather the storm / hold up with its consistent development better than most MCU films that might be seen as Transformers in tights, with the exception of The Winter Soldier...the film some MCU fans complained was "too dark & edgy." Go figure.

DC's got little consistent development going for it, really.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Because we all know good movies never do badly (Dredd) or have bad critical reception (John Carpenter's The Thing).

Marvel's formula works most of the time but staying in the exact same mold all the time kept Civil War from telling a good story.

The difference is that people liked those movies when they came out. So far this forum is one of the few places where I've seen people defend these movies. The most positive reaction is a general meh. Some people will probably like it. But they aren't the rule, they're the exception. There are people who love Zardoz. It doesn't mean Zardoz is some tragically forgotten classic, it just happens to have its fans. If you like these DC movies, don't let me stop you. But I just can't overlook the flaws in the story.

 

[Makarov]

No it wasn't, that's why everyone acted so crazy out of character and the whole thing was contrived.

They should be a little out of character or at least pushed towards some extremes if a philosophical divide is getting them to fight each other, hence the name Civil War and the plot being interesting in the comic.

They do, they just don't act like petty morons and are able to settle things like adults. This isn't DC.

That airport fight being all about Bucky and the movie glossing over the Accords isn't a great example of them settling anything like adults.

Tony had been pushed to the razor's edge by everything, and Zemo's last revelation was enough to make him unreasonable and irrational. That's why he's calmed down by the end and not on a crazy hunt for Steve and Bucky.

Batman and Superman got pushed harder than Tony Stark in that movie and yet you call them petty morons for fighting it out.

 

[dahj]

Some people will probably like it. But they aren't the rule, they're the exception.

I know people who hate this movie like to think they're the majority, but you're really not.

Movies that "people" don't like don't make almost $900 million at the box office and aren't the best selling disc release 4 weeks in a row and counting...

 

[ichab]

I know people who hate this movie like to think they're the majority, but you're really not.

Movies that "people" don't like don't make almost $900 million at the box office and aren't the best selling disc release 4 weeks in a row and counting...

Beat me to it. Same goes for Suicide Squad, the hated movie ravaged by critics that has been number one at the box office for three weekends straight. Movies doing that much business aren't being liked by just a small minority.

 

[Anwar]

They should be a little out of character or at least pushed towards some extremes if a philosophical divide is getting them to fight each other, hence the name Civil War and the plot being interesting in the comic.

The premise was interesting, the actual storyline was garbage.

That airport fight being all about Bucky and the movie glossing over the Accords isn't a great example of them settling anything like adults.

It was about Tony trying to keep Ross from sending in the Army to go after Steve, and Steve trying to keep them from killing Bucky (which is what was going to happen if they caught him again). That, and Zemo's manipulations. The Accords weren't going to get them to actually fight.

And no, no amount of 'Well, the Accords SHOULD'VE been what they were fighting over!' is ever going to make sense. They were never going to fight over a potential political issue, especially considering the real one that needed to be put in check was only Tony.

Batman and Superman got pushed harder than Tony Stark in that movie/QUOTE]

No, they weren't. Superman didn't get pushed at all until the Martha thing.

 

[Trekkin]

As someone who was part of the comic fandom when Civil War originally came out, can I just note how really, really weird it is to see it being held up as a plot line to aspire to?

Has Avengers Disassembled had the same revaluation? The Clone Saga? Chuck Austen?!

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

As someone who was part of the comic fandom when Civil War originally came out, can I just note how really, really weird it is to see it being held up as a plot line to aspire to?

Has Avengers Disassembled had the same revaluation? The Clone Saga? Chuck Austen?!

Why is that?

I was never into the original comics so why do you find that weird?

 

[Marsden]

Because Civil War was stupid.

It was a ridiculous cash grab event that had so many things acting out of character it's easier to note who was in character, everything from Spider-Man suggesting Punisher and Captain America were just the same to Tony Stark inventing a clone of Thor which then kills Dr. Bill Foster to the thing that supposedly started the whole shitbang out, the entire New Warriors team, except Speedball (and what happened to him is a dog shit sundae to go with this shit sandwich) being killed in the first part like they are a bunch of know nothing losers. Oh, did I mention Stark tried to provoke Namor and the Atlanteans to the brink of war with the surface world just to make a threat so they would jump in with the Superhuman Registration Act.

 

[Admiral2]

Movies that "people" don't like don't make almost $900 million at the box office and aren't the best selling disc release 4 weeks in a row and counting...

Damn straight! The Michael Bay Transformers movies have made billions, and they're all great quality films, right? Just like BvS and SS, right? Because huge BO=good storytelling, right?

 

[ancient]

Damn straight! The Michael Bay Transformers movies have made billions, and they're all great quality films, right? Just like BvS and SS, right? Because huge BO=good storytelling, right?

I guess we could call it effective storytelling.

 

[dahj]

Damn straight!

The post I was replying to claimed very few people like BvS. That is demonstrably false.
Troll elsewhere with your silly strawmen.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Damn straight! The Michael Bay Transformers movies have made billions, and they're all great quality films, right? Just like BvS and SS, right? Because huge BO=good storytelling, right?

Who said anything about quality? dodge's post was about popularity.

 

[ichab]

Damn straight! The Michael Bay Transformers movies have made billions, and they're all great quality films, right? Just like BvS and SS, right? Because huge BO=good storytelling, right?

No. Huge box office = popular movie.

Hate to break this to you, but many people who pay $10.00-$15.00 for a ticket and $20.00+ for refreshments could give a sh@t about many of the anal things that are griped about around here. They just want to be entertained. Hence why most movies that win acadamy awards don't make a lot of money.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Damn straight! The Michael Bay Transformers movies have made billions, and they're all great quality films, right? Just like BvS and SS, right? Because huge BO=good storytelling, right?

If anything, the Transformers should be compared to the Disney/Marvel movies. They make billions of dollars, are very popular with Joe Public, are full of "wondrous" CGI cartoon fights and if you've seen one you've seen them all.

 

[crookeddy]

If anything, the Transformers should be compared to the Disney/Marvel movies. They make billions of dollars, are very popular with Joe Public, are full of "wondrous" CGI cartoon fights and if you've seen one you've seen them all.

Except that isn't even close to being true. Watch Ant Man. Then proceed to watch Winter Soldier or Guardians of the Galaxy. Remind me how you just watched the same thing?

 

[Trekkin]

Why is that?

I was never into the original comics so why do you find that weird?

Because it was loathed with the fiery passion of a thousand suns. Think a more vitriolic version of how Trekkies reacted to ENT.

Admittedly, people's major issues were not necessarily with Mark Miller's main run (although it wasn't exactly liked either, thanks to ooc moments, Miller's politics coming through, an anticlimax etc.) It was the tie-ins that seemed to induce the rage.

Particularly this one, whose end game was meant to be confirming that Cap was on the wrong side:



I personally don't know what people complained about, i think it aged rather well...

 

[Makarov]

Some maybe have hated those comics for taking characters to new places, just like those who can't stand the idea of Batman killing people, but I loved them. One thing I remember is a lot of discussion about the opposing sides especially in the beginning. Which didn't happen at all with the movie because there's zero debatable about Bucky's innocence, there are hardly sides to the civil war, so no real conflict to get the audience interested. All spotless heroes remaining spotless, with one incident of friendly fire where they apologize immediately after. Even that can be blamed on the villain manipulating them all. Very weak.

But if you just want more of the quippy lighthearted fun with that same Marvel action then the movie has that covered.

 

[Trekkin]

Later non-status-quo runs like Dark Reign was quiet popular. I think in the end, people just didn't find the 'morally grey' sides in Civil War to be all that 'grey.'

Which I get, even if I don't quiet share the hatred. On one hand, you had the books saying Tony was in the right. That is very much 'black-and-White' territory, in spite of CW's mission statement. On the other hand, you had Tony pulling super-villain level crap. Which from a readers POV, also made things pretty unambiguous.... in a completely unintended way.

Marvel eventually giving up on Tony's 'having any sort of moral high ground, was probably the final nail in the coffin. Ghost Rider taking one look at him and deciding his sins were worthy of fiery vengeance is pretty definite.

My most pervading memory of reactions to 'Pick a side...,' was people electing 'Team Hulk. Because they're both fucked when he gets back.' And they were right!

 

[crookeddy]

But if you just want more of the quippy lighthearted fun with that same Marvel action then the movie has that covered.

Lighthearted fun such as a terrorist attack on the United Nations, and good ol' lovable Tony Stark trying to kill the man who murdered his mother.