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I do not like MCU films

I guess we have to assume that no criminal he ever fought before ever called out to their kindling some warmth in Batman's heart or Superman is an unique case because "reasons".
Well, hero vs hero fights always resolve themselves with unsatisfactory ways. Nobody wants to make either hero look bad by making them win outright, so they have to come up with some clause for both characters to walk away with their dignity.

Bats was in the wrong in BvS. He even admitted as much during Supes' funeral.
 
I guess we have to assume that no criminal he ever fought before ever called out to their kindling some warmth in Batman's heart or Superman is an unique case because "reasons".
I think you missed a word in there.

Also, we all know villains have no families.
 
Well, hero vs hero fights always resolve themselves with unsatisfactory ways. Nobody wants to make either hero look bad by making them win outright, so they have to come up with some clause for both characters to walk away with their dignity.

Bats was in the wrong in BvS. He even admitted as much during Supes' funeral.
They could have at least put more thought into it. It's pathetically dumb.
 
Again, Batman offers to rehabilitate the joker in the killing joke. So I don't know why someone would find it unusual for him to have a change of heart against his enemies. That's a thing he does.

Superman is also an alien involved in destruction batman hadnt seen on this scale before, much different than his average enemy. You really have to have blinders on to miss this stuff.
 
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But that's not the world they set up. Normally Batman is willing to help his enemies. But you're confusing those Batmen with the one in the movie. This isn't the Batman from Killing Joke or any other comic, show or movie. In the movie universe, Batman is clearly not shy about killing or allowing his enemies to die later. He's also convinced that Superman is such a threat that to quote him (and Dick Cheney for some odd reason) that even if there was a 1% chance he wanted to kill humanity it must be taken as a certainty. Superman is good (although this is debatable in that movie's universe), but we are never shown Batman learning this. At least Man of Steel gave us the "this man is not our enemy" scene. He just finds out he has a mother. If the whole point of the movie is uniting these two iconic heroes after an initial conflict, something done countless times in other media, it fails completely. It fails as a movie and as a coherent story. I don't have blinders on, I'm refusing to ignore serious flaws out of some loyalty to a concept of a character.
 
Because that's never set up.

It is. It's set up right from the start with Bruce's opening narration...
Alfred refers to it, the newspaper headlines and TV talking heads refer to it, and in the UC citizens of Gotham make a point that Batman has grown more mean.

I don't have blinders on

For someone who doesn't have blinders on, you sure are ignoring half the stuff that actually happens in the movie...
 
They drove the story. Buildings falling on Bruce Wayne's people in Man of Steel. That was what drove the story.

Not that I saw. Everything in this movie seemed to indicate that this Batman had been going off the deep end for a while, and Superman was just his latest and greatest obsession. Remarks being made about the ultimate cut seemingly confirm that.

There's a difference between attempting to provide a basic reason (and then at least partially undercutting it) for a character's actions, versus actually driving the movie.

Not mention, Batman himself wasn't the driving force for this movie, anyway. That was Lex Luthor, who's backstory and motivation was completely glossed over.

I rather disagree. I certainly hadn't been expecting them to go full-on Death of Superman in their second movie outing. Whether or not they reverse it, well, it's comic books, but it's a distinct difference from the consequence-free violence of MCU films.

I already said it was unexpected. That still doesn't make it worthwhile. It has basically no drama, no effect on the story, it will have no effect moving forward (since Superman obviously cannot stay dead - indeed, we've already seen his new costume for JL - and they didn't even give themselves a setup for the actual death of superman storyline), so it's just a completely meaningless throw-away death entirely devoid of tension. I agree with you that MoS had tension. BvS, though, didn't. At all.

And since Marvel actually has killed off a major character and not immediately brought them back in the next movie, it is definitely not somehow superior just for having the balls to (temporarily) kill someone.

And the way the action is filmed and directed, and the structuring of the story, and the themes, and basically everything. What it had in common with a Marvel movie was superheroes, that's it.

Those weren't the types of characteristics you were talking about before. Also, the themes (hero vs hero, what is the right thing to do, can x be trusted with power) have been seen mutliple times in the marvel movies. And I have no idea what you think was so special about the structure of the story. Just that it was longer? Because it didn't stand out as at all unusual to me.

I guess what I would say is that consequences in the big-screen MCU for me... there's very little in the way of teeth in them. I can watch an MCU movie and laugh along with the quipping heroes and such, but I never feel a moment's actual tension on behalf of any of the characters. We will get to the end without anybody being killed (save the disposable faceless mooks) or even undergoing anything too deeply harrowing, and we know this at the beginning; even GotG's "killing" of Groot is reset -- albeit memorably and hilariously, I'll give them that -- by the end.

(It stands out particularly glaringly in the big screen because Downie's Iron Man has become basically the Avengers' flagship hero... and that character comes built in with a very famous story arc conspicuous in its absence from the films, for the fairly obvious reason that it isn't Disney-friendly.)

Compare and contrast Superman being forced to kill Zod in his first movie or getting whacked in his second big-screen outing, or Batman suffering from PTSD from watching the destruction of Metropolis. For that matter compare and contrast what the MCU itself routinely does on the small screen in series like Jessica Jones, Daredevil or Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. -- there's just no comparison.

Quicksilver is actually dead, in an incredibly moving scene that drove both character development (for SW) and the plot (by taking her away from her post). As far as the movies (and probably most of the audience) are concerned, so is Coulson, in probably the most important scene in the Avengers. I'll grant, they've had a bad habit of fakeout deaths so far, but those are not the only representation of the stakes in the MCU. And they're not the only kind of consequences.

IM3 was nothing but consequences from Avengers (and incidentally actually openly made use of PTSD, which BVS did not, even if you can theoretically interpret it that way). Civil War was nothing but consequences from Ultron.

And I'm not even sure why you're trying to couple the ideas of 'consequences' and 'tension' in the first place, because the movies you're claiming have more tension have significantly less consequences in them than several of the marvel movies. It sounds to me like your experience of tension has far more to do with tone - that you just can't overlook the quippy marvel style enough to feel the tension.
 
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That still doesn't make it worthwhile. It has basically no drama, no effect on the story, it will have no effect moving forward (since Superman obviously cannot stay dead - indeed, we've already seen his new costume for JL - and they didn't even give themselves a setup for the actual death of superman storyline), so it's just a completely meaningless throw-away death entirely devoid of tension. I agree with you that MoS had tension. BvS, though, didn't. At all.

The only thing I'll agree with you is that the Death of Superman did kind of come out of left field. The movie never really earned it, but to say it didn't affect the narrative isn't true.

The death of Superman is actually what spurs Bruce to want to create the Justice League, he tells Diana that "I failed him in life, I won't fail him in death." He's not going to let Superman's death be in vain.

Also, it will have an impact in future films because when Superman returns (ha, see what I did there?) they're going to soften him up a bit. Now this isn't confirmed, but it's widely believed when he does come back it will be in the form of a soft reboot and this new Man of Steel will be a little more in line with what general audiences perceive of Superman to be. Even if that's more speculation, I think it's a good idea to go this route, since we've seen Superman struggling with who he is and his place in the world, maybe he's finally figured that out after he comes back.

I liked the death of Quicksilver though, but it's kind of different. In that film we were only introduced to him and his death was a plot device (not saying Superman's wasn't either though): it was there to show that the stakes are real (like Wash's death, or any number of the death's in Joss' TV shows).
 
Not that I saw. Everything in this movie seemed to indicate that this Batman had been going off the deep end for a while, and Superman was just his latest and greatest obsession.
All I can tell you is that the sequence of events, and what caused what, seemed pretty clear in the theatre and was spelled out explicitly in Alfred's dialogue. Not much more to say than that.

There's a difference between attempting to provide a basic reason (and then at least partially undercutting it) for a character's actions, versus actually driving the movie.
If the sequence of events wouldn't happen without a specific reason, fairly obviously that reason is driving the movie. Actually all of Batman's subsequent actions are consistent with it, so this seems like hairsplitting to me. (Ultimately itself being manipulated by Lex's plotting? Sure, but he's just the dark mirror of Batsy's motivations. And his motivations weren't "glossed over," just simple -- rage at the loss of power and privilege. Wow, super-hard to think of any villain being motivated by that, hey? ;) )

I already said it was unexpected. That still doesn't make it worthwhile
Your tastes are your tastes, brother.
 
Not even close.
Then what hidden message was I missing? Because it seems like WB was so desperate for a megafranchise they approved a script using a quickly written first draft and no one bothered to work on it.
It is. It's set up right from the start with Bruce's opening narration...
Alfred refers to it, the newspaper headlines and TV talking heads refer to it, and in the UC citizens of Gotham make a point that Batman has grown more mean.



For someone who doesn't have blinders on, you sure are ignoring half the stuff that actually happens in the movie...
I don't recall them making a point that he's gotten worse. I remember fan speculation that he had. Even then there is nothing to establish that he was wrong about that, just that he was wrong about Superman. Now I've only seen the theatrical cut, which is a pile of garbage. I do hear that the extended version does explain things better, so that might be in there somewhere. But I only have the original cut to go off of and I'm not impressed. I'm still interested in Wonder Woman, but my expectations of the DC movies are about as low as you can go.
 
I don't recall them making a point that he's gotten worse.

Alfred shows Bruce the newspapers with the branding headline and asks him "New rules, sir?"
Bruce replies "We've always been criminals Alfred, nothing's changed".
To which Alfred says "Oh, yes it has, sir, men fall from the sky, gods hurl thunderbolts, innocents die... that's how it starts, the fever, the rage, the feeling of powerlessness, that turns good men cruel."
Which leads into Clark watching the report on TV which also states that branding criminals is a new thing, the guy from the prologue being only the second person branded by the Bat.

Most of that is even in the trailers.
 
We already see a change in Bruce's demeanor in the Justice League footage, so I'm OK with him being a bit off the rails in this film. Since as I outlined in a post above, he realizes how far he's fallen after Superman dies. Actually he probably realizes it sooner too, as evidenced by him rescuing Martha Kent.

Let's not rule out the death of Jason Todd. That also set him down his path as well. The destruction in Metropolis because of Zod was just icing on the cake.
 
The only thing I'll agree with you is that the Death of Superman did kind of come out of left field. The movie never really earned it, but to say it didn't affect the narrative isn't true.

The death of Superman is actually what spurs Bruce to want to create the Justice League, he tells Diana that "I failed him in life, I won't fail him in death." He's not going to let Superman's death be in vain.

Also, it will have an impact in future films because when Superman returns (ha, see what I did there?) they're going to soften him up a bit. Now this isn't confirmed, but it's widely believed when he does come back it will be in the form of a soft reboot and this new Man of Steel will be a little more in line with what general audiences perceive of Superman to be. Even if that's more speculation, I think it's a good idea to go this route, since we've seen Superman struggling with who he is and his place in the world, maybe he's finally figured that out after he comes back.

I liked the death of Quicksilver though, but it's kind of different. In that film we were only introduced to him and his death was a plot device (not saying Superman's wasn't either though): it was there to show that the stakes are real (like Wash's death, or any number of the death's in Joss' TV shows).

I agree those things will be rationalized as the 'result' of Superman dying, but it feels to me like they would've happened no matter what. Once Superman and Batman decided to work together, everything else was inevitable.

And Quicksilver's death absolutely was done for different reasons. I only mentioned it because of the claim that BvS was superior to all marvel movies simply because it actually killed a major character.

If the sequence of events wouldn't happen without a specific reason, fairly obviously that reason is driving the movie. Actually all of Batman's subsequent actions are consistent with it, so this seems like hairsplitting to me. (Ultimately itself being manipulated by Lex's plotting? Sure, but he's just the dark mirror of Batsy's motivations. And his motivations weren't "glossed over," just simple -- rage at the loss of power and privilege. Wow, super-hard to think of any villain being motivated by that, hey? ;) )

Call it hairsplitting if you want. We'll have to agree to disagree there.

I am honestly confused about your interpretation of Luthor, though. What power and privilege is he supposed to have lost? And where in the movie did he ever say a single word that even hinted at that?
 
What power and privilege is he supposed to have lost?
The part where he'd be the most powerful person on Earth if Superman hadn't arrived. He of course hasn't really "lost" anything, he's just the superhero movie version of an entitled Trumper pissed off about illegal aliens.
And where in the movie did he ever say a single word that even hinted at that?
Gives a long, rambling, awkward speech about it in the museum scene that trails off and leaves the audience uncomfortable... you know, kind of a really huge signpost like Alfred speech for Batman... alludes to it repeatedly in his exchanges with Senator Peaches...
 
The part where he'd be the most powerful person on Earth if Superman hadn't arrived. He of course hasn't really "lost" anything, he's just the superhero movie version of an entitled Trumper pissed off about illegal aliens.

Gives a long, rambling, awkward speech about it in the museum scene that trails off and leaves the audience uncomfortable... you know, kind of a really huge signpost like Alfred speech for Batman... alludes to it repeatedly in his exchanges with Senator Peaches...

I'm trying to find some specific quotes - I assume you're talking about the party scene where Bruce and Clark meet? Unfortunately the only site I can find is a full transcript of nothing but the dialogue with all the names removed, so it's somewhat difficult to decipher. So far I've got a random comment about Prometheus foiling Zeus' plan to destroy humanity and being (unfairly?) rewarded with a thunderbolt, a line about Lex's dad being originally to poor to afford newspapers and this: "Books are knowledge,
and knowledge is puff worth.
And I am...
Heh heh heh, no.
I, umm.
No, what am I?
Alright, what am I suppose to say?
No.
The bitter sweet pain among man
is having knowledge with no power.
Because...
Because that is paradoxical,
and umm...
Thank you for coming."

That seems to be the entirety of his speech as far as I can tell. So, yeah, I agree he's apparently jealous of not having superpowers. I don't think this, by itself, does a good job at all of setting up any motivation for him to want to kill Superman so that he can be 'the most powerful man in the world' again. (Which I seriously doubt he was to begin with, and he still wouldn't be even if he succeeded - see the Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg, all of whom he has files on)
 
So, yeah, I agree he's apparently jealous of not having superpowers.
Comity!
I don't think this, by itself, does a good job at all of setting up any motivation for him to want to kill Superman so that he can be 'the most powerful man in the world' again.
That's me extrapolating more than anything, but I don't think it's a stretch to think he thinks he would have been If Not For. It would of course be a narcissistic opinion but then, he's narcissist.
(Which I seriously doubt he was to begin with, and he still wouldn't be even if he succeeded - see the Flash, Aquaman, Cyborg, all of whom he has files on)
For same reasons as his obsession with Supes, no doubt. (There's also something going on in the background with the Apokolips and the Darkseid and the mmmmglayven which I don't know what that is, presumably that's setup for JLA.)
 
I'm with OP

I like the films but feel like too much of a good thing is too much..... I loved Iron Man and the first Thor movie, and the first Avengers movie, in fact I'd say I loved all the "first" instalments that they made, not the sequels so much.

OK for me:

Iron Man 1 - Loved this to bits. It's fun
Iron Man 2 - I like this one as well
Iron Man 3 - This is the one I really hated. Did not like this one bit but do love the first two instalments..

Love Ant Man that was fun.

That's all.
 
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