I CAN'T STAND HER!

[Good Will Riker]

I see right through the formula of Seasons 3-7 episodes. Virtually all the episodes feel like they follow the same "cookie cutter formula," including the 4 TNG films, as if they were all produced using the same "fill in the blank" plot generator.

Exploration of ideas, allegories, morality plays, social issues, historical analogies, dynamic scores, golden age science-fiction style stories, the bravado, the machismo, the action, the adventure, etc. of TOS and early-TNG all gone and in place replaced by the "touchy, feely, talky, PC Trek," way too many shipbound episodes (very, very few exploration of new planets), too many spacial anomaly episodes, too many children episodes, too many pointless and talky "character development" episodes (such as "In Theory," "Hero Worship," and "New Ground.") in place of interesting stories, and spouting of nonsensical technobabble in virtually all of the later season episodes. Trek not only went to the well too many times with Berman, but it also became very, very safe with very little risktaking in storytelling. In other words, boring.

The earlier seasons explored "strange new worlds." Soughtout "new life and new civilizations," and "boldly" went "where no man" had "gone before." The later seasons just did not offer much in the way of that. Berman and his people forgot what the spirit of "True Star Trek" was all about. Infact, they never knew what that was in the first place.

 

[Warped9]

Red Ranger said:
Good Will Riker, Warped 9,

Wow, you guys really feel that way? The earlier seasons were better than the later ones? You should post that in the Star Trek Shames thread!

Red Ranger

Season Two was an overall improvement over Season One. After "The Best Of Both Worlds" in S3 though it was pretty much downhill for me. Sure the show was then more polished, but it lost something in the transition. For me it no longer felt as something of deep space adventure but as character angst and soap opera of the week. Blech!

 

[Mallory]

Spider said:
Troi was sometimes a pain to watch in the early years of TNG, but was much better written and acted in the later years. However, there will be no redemption from me for that horrible, badly written character of her mother.

Pretty much my position on the Troi family as well (although I did enjoy Mr Homn). Deanna Troi was an interesting concept but no one ever found a good way to make her an integral and important part of the show.

 

[14thDoctor]

I didn't find Toi annoying, anymore that I find TNG in general annoying in retrospect.

-Picard, with his "all religions are stupid" and "federation ethics are superior to everyone elses" attitude,
-Data, the supersmart, superstrong android that wants more than anything to be "human" for some unspecified reason.
-Riker, the gung-ho young Commander who somehow lacks the balls to accept a promotion or make a move for Troi,
-Geordie, who's disabled AND a minority! Too bad he didn't get a decent characterization as well.
-Crusher, who didn't have a character except occasionally being Picards love interest.

Honestly, I liked Pulaski. Sure, she was something of a McCoy ripoff, and she didn't treat Data with respect, but at least she was interesting.

 

[Warped9]

TNG even in the seasons I found somewhat tolerable was never great tv sf, and certainly in general not on par with TOS' first two seasons which is overall the best Star Trek ever done. But S1-S3 TNG did have some reasonable episodes that I liked. And oddly TNG S2 had what I consider to be TNG's shining hour and something on par with decent TOS: "The Measure Of A Man." And S1-S3 TNG felt felt somewhat more spiritually connected to TOS than anything in Trek since except for a very few episodes of early DS9.

I also liked it better when Picard had some crust and edge to him, something seen even more so in the early TNG novels. It worked better than his oh-so-sophiticated demeanor of later seasons.

Deanna Troi wasn't so much a bad idea so much as an idea terribly executed. They just never seemed to jnow how to utilize her and so she always came accross as extraneous and supremely irritating as hell. Tasha Yar was another decent idea that was also burdened by poor casting and lacklustre focus.

 

[Tomalak]

You know, I think you are mellowing in your old age.

 

[Armus]

I see right through the formula of Seasons 3-7 episodes. Virtually all the episodes feel like they follow the same "cookie cutter formula," including the 4 TNG films, as if they were all produced using the same "fill in the blank" plot generator.

Exploration of ideas, allegories, morality plays, social issues, historical analogies, dynamic scores, golden age science-fiction style stories, the bravado, the machismo, the action, the adventure, etc. of TOS and early-TNG all gone and in place replaced by the "touchy, feely, talky, PC Trek," way too many shipbound episodes (very, very few exploration of new planets), too many spacial anomaly episodes, too many children episodes, too many pointless and talky "character development" episodes (such as "In Theory," "Hero Worship," and "New Ground.") in place of interesting stories, and spouting of nonsensical technobabble in virtually all of the later season episodes. Trek not only went to the well too many times with Berman, but it also became very, very safe with very little risktaking in storytelling. In other words, boring.

The earlier seasons explored "strange new worlds." Soughtout "new life and new civilizations," and "boldly" went "where no man" had "gone before." The later seasons just did not offer much in the way of that. Berman and his people forgot what the spirit of "True Star Trek" was all about. Infact, they never knew what that was in the first place.

I have to agree with that, although I think there are a few more episodes that hold up. Michael Piller, may he rest in peace, is overrated in my mind. For every "Best Of Both Worlds", there were 5 "In Theory's". Would you rather sit through "New Ground" than "The Royale"? I really wish Maurice Hurley stayed on TNG for a few more seasons. He was a more in touch with bravado and maschismo than Piller, who made Picard too soft.

 

[Ro_Laren]

Red Ranger said:
One of my other favorite Betazoids was Tam Elbrun from "Tin Man." I liked how his telepathic abiliities were so strong that they made him anti-social. My favorite part is when he "argues" with Riker based on his thoughts over what Riker thought was Tam's complicity in the disaster with Captain Darson and the Adelphi.
Red Ranger

My least favorite Betazoid...

I like Deanna's character though it always annoyed me that she wasn't in uniform... that is until a certain Captain made her follow Starfleet regulations. However, I must admit that I didn't like Deanna in the episode The Child. HE WASN"T YOUR KID & HE WAS ONLY WITH YOU FOR A COUPLE DAYS!!!! STOP CRYING!

For the record, my least favorite TNG character was Pulaski (even though she was only credited as a "Special Guest Star").

 

[Good Will Riker]

Armus said:I have to agree with that, although I think there are a few more episodes that hold up. Michael Piller, may he rest in peace, is overrated in my mind. For every "Best Of Both Worlds", there were 5 "In Theory's". Would you rather sit through "New Ground" than "The Royale"? I really wish Maurice Hurley stayed on TNG for a few more seasons. He was a more in touch with bravado and maschismo than Piller, who made Picard too soft.

This happens to be my personal Star Trek canon:

TOS: Seasons 1,2,3
TAS: Seasons 1,2
TNG: Seasons 1,2 + "Yesterday's Enterprise" + "The Best of Both Worlds, Parts I & II" + "Family" + "The First Duty" + Season 6 + "The Pegasus" + "All Good Things..."
DS9: Seasons 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
VOY: Seasons 1,2,3 + "Scorpion, Parts I & II" + "Dark Frontier" + "Endgame"
ENT: "These Are the Voyages..." only (You guys can thank me for this one being included in the Captain's Log Fan Collective. )
Films: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX

I can never rewatch anymore TNG episodes than what I listed above for the reasons I listed above, eventhough I watched every single TNG episode from 1987-1994. Although, since I own the Q and the Borg Fan Collective DVD sets, I guess I will be rewatching the later Q and the Borg episodes from TNG, as well as the Q and the Borg episodes from VOY because I happen to have them on DVD, rather than because I actually want to. Also, since the TNG writers were considering "The Royale" as a Season 1 episode (It was written in early 1988, but held back a season), I would have gladly replaced the PC, male-bashing "Angel One" (The only Season 1 episode that I myself dislike.) for "The Royale" in its place. For me, that would have constituted a perfect TNG season for me.

My friends, you are speaking to a Star Trek fan who happens to appreciate the swashbuckling ""Buck Rogers" and "Flash Gordon" style to his action sci-fi. Gil Gerard, Sam J. Jones, Jonathan Frakes: Bring them on! :thumbsup:

 

[Warped9]

Seasons 1 and 2 had interesting ideas that I felt went undeveloped. It felt like a lot raw materiel begging for some focus, which is what we started to get a little more consitently in S2. Season 3 was the bridge--if we'd gotten S3's polish in the first two seasons it would have been greatly appreciated and we might have gotten work on par with some of TOS' best. But S3 was also the bridge to what came later. Everyone seemed to get blander and the formula began to creep in (only it wasn't formulaic yet). Then S4 comes along and I increasingly didn't care anymore as rigor mortis solidified. It wasn't that there wasn't the occasional episode of interest to come in Seasons 4-7, but I just lost interst and didn't care anyome.

If I had cash to spare after all else I'd like to get I might purchase Seasons 1, 2 and 3 of TNG, but none of the rest. Better yet if I knew someone who had the box sets I'd rip the episodes I like for my own mini collection.

 

[Good Will Riker]

Warped9 said:
If I had cash to spare after all else I'd like to get I might purchase Seasons 1, 2 and 3 of TNG, but none of the rest. Better yet if I knew someone who had the box sets I'd rip the episodes I like for my own mini collection.

PM Jammer. He's the occassional mod in the DS9 forum, and posts in the BSG forum.

He's almost done reviewing TNG Season 3 on his website, and he simply no longer enjoys TNG like the way he used to. You can obtain the Seasons 1,2,3 DVDs from him probably for just the cost of shipping alone, because "his fans" sent him about $800.00 for FREE for him to purchase those sets in the first place. He won't be watching those episodes again.

 

[uss_griffin]

14thDoctor said:
-Crusher, who didn't have a character except occasionally being Picards love interest.

Honestly, I liked Pulaski. Sure, she was something of a McCoy ripoff, and she didn't treat Data with respect, but at least she was interesting.

Amen!
When I saw the "can't stand her" headline, I figured it must be about Dr. Crusher.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

14thDoctor said:
-Picard, with his "all religions are stupid" and "federation ethics are superior to everyone elses" attitude,

Aren't they? And aren't they?

-Data, the supersmart, superstrong android that wants more than anything to be "human" for some unspecified reason.

A safety by Soong after Lore's creepiness? A bot that wants to be human will not have a superioty complex? Maybe?

-Riker, the gung-ho young Commander who somehow lacks the balls to accept a promotion or make a move for Troi,

Why make for Troi, when Riker has more tail than Jabba the Hutt? (I would've skipped the androgynous "chick" in THE OUTCAST, but he likes variety. The promotion thing was dumb though.

-Geordie, who's disabled AND a minority! Too bad he didn't get a decent characterization as well.

Sure he did. He's bad with women. Uh....

-Crusher, who didn't have a character except occasionally being Picards love interest.

Rubbish! Why, she was also the love interest for alien guest stars and horny ghosts.

And she was ultra-bleeding heart on a ship with a crew so far to the left that it would make Rush Limbaugh melt into goo.


As for Troi, she was alright when she was given something to do. "Who Watches the Watchers?" and "Face of the Enemy" (is that right?) were good examples...hmmm...maybe she should've been a Vulcan instead?

 

[Jonesy]

Warped9 said:

Red Ranger said:
Good Will Riker, Warped 9,

Wow, you guys really feel that way? The earlier seasons were better than the later ones? You should post that in the Star Trek Shames thread!

Red Ranger

Season Two was an overall improvement over Season One. After "The Best Of Both Worlds" in S3 though it was pretty much downhill for me. Sure the show was then more polished, but it lost something in the transition. For me it no longer felt as something of deep space adventure but as character angst and soap opera of the week. Blech!

I tend to think that season 3 was the point at which TNG had enough of the best qualities of the earlier seasons, (and I think they did a pretty good job of getting rid of them relatively quickly, since most of what I had a problem with in season 1 was mostly gone by the beginning of season 2) with just enough polish, to provide the pinnacle for the series. I think there was definetly a slope following BOBW all the way to the relatively dissapointing final year.

 

[davejames]

I definitely see how things got a bit more forumalaic in later seasons, but for me the most important thing is that the characters became a lot more likeable from season 3 on. There was much more of a family feel to the show, which was really lacking early on. Even in a crappy episode, you could still count on some fun character interaction somewhere, which you can't really say about the first 2 seasons.

As for Troi, I actually liked her a lot more in the (otherwise crappy) TNG movies when Sirtis could let a little of her own personality shine through. Too bad THAT Troi didn't show up in the series.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I liked Deanna. Still do, but she sure can be naive... "They're our allies, Worf. We have to trust them..." If only she'd known what scumbag lurked in Cardassian territory or what he'd do to her planet...

 

[Baba101]

Deanna filled the crucial role of fleet whore.

 

[cultcross]

^ well, that was... crude. thank you.

 

[steveman]

14thDoctor said:
I didn't find Toi annoying, anymore that I find TNG in general annoying in retrospect.

-Picard, with his "all religions are stupid" and "federation ethics are superior to everyone elses" attitude,
-Data, the supersmart, superstrong android that wants more than anything to be "human" for some unspecified reason.
-Riker, the gung-ho young Commander who somehow lacks the balls to accept a promotion or make a move for Troi,
-Geordie, who's disabled AND a minority! Too bad he didn't get a decent characterization as well.
-Crusher, who didn't have a character except occasionally being Picards love interest.

Honestly, I liked Pulaski. Sure, she was something of a McCoy ripoff, and she didn't treat Data with respect, but at least she was interesting.

Once they brought Ro on to the show, they should have made it permanent. She shook things up. Was completely unlike her fellow crew members.

 

[Ro_Laren]

^ I wish she would have stayed on the show too!!