I, Borg is really bad

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If Hugh had been an assimilated person, he would have returned to that state after being cut off from the collective. And we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But since Hugh is a native-born Borg, somehow that makes him less alive? Less worthy of being treated as a sentient being? I'm not buying it.

 

[Trekker4747]

Did doctors cry at the genocide of the smallpox virus?

Are viruses intelligent beings (hell they're not even technically "alive") capable of thought, behavior and understanding of the universe around them?

No. They are not.

The Borg, however, are. Their way of life may not be one we like, their behavior may not be one we like and they have malicious intent towards us but they're not a virus.

Again, the question comes down to: What makes The Borg as an enemy any different than any other enemy the Federation faces, other than Borg being technologically advanced and far more aggressive?

If the Federation can just decide to wipe out a species simply because a relationship couldn't be established with them (even a "You leave us alone, we'll leave you alone," one) doesn't that make the Federation a far more powerful and sinister enemy? Sort of an, "Either you're with us or against us!" one?

What does that tell other races in the galaxy?

 

[Taelon]

The Borg aren't a people, it's a computer system that uses organic drones who used to be people.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm glad genocide is such an easy decision for so many people. Gives me hope for the future.

This "moral dilemma" as such in "I, Borg" only makes sense in a context of the Borg not being an existential threat to the Federation. But that's not how they were depicted. They were depicted as an existential threat to the Federation of an order beyond any encountered before, one both hellbent and capable of assimilating everyone in the Federation.

The Federation's survival against the Borg hung by a thread. It depended on one hero ship always being there to pull its ass out of the fire. With stakes and odds like that, after "I, Borg," there is absolutely no reason why Starfleet shouldn't remove Picard from command on suspicion that he's still in league with the Borg.

Remember what happened in the film First Contact? If the Ent-E hadn't somehow gone along with the Borg Queen when she went back in time, there would have been no more Earth, you know, of the free variety, and no more Federation. The argument that, well, no one could foresee at the time of "I, Borg" how close the Federation really was to getting defeated, that argument doesn't hold water. The only reason that the Federation hadn't already been defeated by just a single Borg cube was because one hero ship had found that the Borg OS was behind on its software security patches. The odds against the Federation were already known at that point.

DS9 at least dealt with a similar premise more believably, vis-a-vis the Founders, Section 31, and the morphogenic virus. Peace was possible in the end, but only because the Founders actually backed down from trying to enslave the Federation.

 

[Orphalesion]

a damned thing to do with some preposterous sci-fi cyber-zombie continuity crap.

People keep using that word way too much on these forums...

It is not "preposterous" the Borg are a race (even if they weren't space zombies yet) that 1) regularly commits genocide on a massive scale 2) can't be reasoned with, because they don't even recognize us as intelligent beings, hence there's no peaceful solution available.

I understand that Hugh was a person and that it is important to remember that any "enemy" in any war is a person. But the Borg were not individuals and Hugh had just developed his sense of self.
I don't think anybody really denies that there is a moral dilemma here, the question is whether sacrificing Hugh would have been worth to save countless billions.

 

[RoJoHen]

The Borg aren't a people, it's a computer system that uses organic drones who used to be people.

But at some point they were people. They were people that decided to incorporate cybernetics into their biology; the Borg Queen said so herself.

Even if you choose to use the virus analogy... You treat the virus; you don't condemn the person for catching it.

 

[Mudd]

The Borg aren't a people, it's a computer system that uses organic drones who used to be people.

The Borg aren't real. They're a story-telling device that changed with just about every outing, dependent on what the writers wanted a given story to be about.

If a writer wanted to tell a story about destroying the Borg as a group it would be because the writer wanted to justify mass killing on an "ends justify the means" basis.

a damned thing to do with some preposterous sci-fi cyber-zombie continuity crap.

People keep using that word way too much on these forums...

Preposterous.

A piece of fiction that suggests that unleashing mass destruction on some folks from a safe distance is the "moral choice" is snuff porn for sociopaths - that's why you don't see it in shows like Star Trek.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The point of the story is that the enemy are people.

They are always people. It's only by looking at them from a distance, as if they're a mass, focusing on what you think makes them different from you, that makes the decision to kill them "simple."

And that story would've worked great if it had been told with literally ANY other race in the Star Trek universe. But since everything we'd been told about the Borg up until this point was that they did NOT have any individually and were actually a merciless hive-mind responsible for BILLIONS of deaths, the entire premise falls apart.

Remember, assimilation wasn't SOP for the Borg until after this story. Them absorbing other races into their own was a massive retcon.

 

[Orphalesion]

snuff porn for sociopaths

Wow. Nice. Now we are down to name calling.

Again nobody denies that it would have been a bad thing on Hugh to sacrifice him like that. The question remains if the end of stopping the Borg (those really nice people who regularly wipe out whole civilizations on their manic quest for "perfection")would have justified the sacrifice of one individual.

And that story would've worked great if it had been told with literally ANY other race in the Star Trek universe. But since everything we'd been told about the Borg up until this point was that they did NOT have any individually and were actually a merciless hive-mind responsible for BILLIONS of deaths, the entire premise falls apart.

Remember, assimilation wasn't SOP for the Borg until after this story. Them absorbing other races into their own was a massive retcon.

^ This. The Borg as pointed out already constantly commit genocide on a massive basis, hae no sense of the individual and no regard for the lives of others. They are the ultimate, nonredeemable bad guy. They are not Cardassians or Klingons or Romulans. I doubt that wanting to stop them, even if stooping to less then nice means automatically makes you a sociopath. In that vain you could also call the Allied forces in WW II sociopaths for stuff like Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki... And the people who were bombed there were not hive-mind controlled automatons.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

A piece of fiction that suggests that unleashing mass destruction on some folks from a safe distance is the "moral choice" is snuff porn for sociopaths - that's why you don't see it in shows like Star Trek.

Star Trek pushed the button on the Borg in VOY "Endgame," by infecting them with a "neurolytic pathogen." So, no, we did see that sort of thing in Star Trek.

But at least now we know that TPTB thought Voyager fans were sociopaths.

 

[Myko]

Technically the Borg don't commit genocide. They only kill in self-defense. Assimilation isn't fatal and as Seven of Nine proves, can be reverted.

Although this of course varies between episodes...

 

[Gaith]

A piece of fiction that suggests that unleashing mass destruction on some folks from a safe distance is the "moral choice" is snuff porn for sociopaths - that's why you don't see it in shows like Star Trek.

Saying the UFP lived a "safe distance" from the Borg threat is like saying England was a "safe distance" from Nazi Germany - laughable.

No one here is saying that Picard should have wiped out all the Borg and then thrown a huge party. But CorporalCaptain is right: they were an existential threat to the Federation, as well as who knows how many other races and intergalactic cultures. Deploying the virus against the Cube in First Contact would certainly not have been inappropriate.

 

[Marsden]

Did doctors cry at the genocide of the smallpox virus?

Is that being argued on behalf of the several political/historical movements that have identified undesirable human beings as infections?

No, sir.

The Borg aren't real. They're a story-telling device that changed with just about every outing, dependent on what the writers wanted a given story to be about.

If a writer wanted to tell a story about destroying the Borg as a group it would be because the writer wanted to justify mass killing on an "ends justify the means" basis.

Yes, the borg are not real and that's part of my point, if they were real the captain involved would so do it there would barely be a thought beforehand. Much sorrow perhaps, even guilt so unbarable that it could lead to suicide, but no real hesitation beforehand because in such a clear cut threat to all lifeforms in Federation, Klingon, Romulan and everyone else's space there is no other choice. It's selfish of Picard to not want to live with the guilt of it and to pay for it he's sacrificing everyone that the borg kill over the next years,
like all of the people killed in Decent, First Contact, and after that. I even think this is a justifiable reason for Picard's behaviour in First Contact, more than it being "Action Picard" he really could have prevented this, possibly.

Additionally, what if Geordi's virus only destroys the borg mainframe and not the borg individuals themselves? That was my understanding of it, that only the computer mind would be destroyed not the meat bags subjugated by it.

Did Picard befreind Hugh? When his WiFi restored did he hug him goodbye or was Hugh just another automaton with no emotions or sapience?

I also have an unaccepted theory that the actual borg are the nanoprobes that infect the people and the mainframe that runs them not the people themselves so phasering drones does indeed kill people but curing them of the nanoprobes would free them. If the nanoprobes are inert from the mainframe failing, the borg drones might all have been freed.



And I don't like to be pedantic but somebody get a dictionary and learn what sentient means. You keep saying it but I don't think you know what it means.

 

[Salinga]

A piece of fiction that suggests that unleashing mass destruction on some folks from a safe distance is the "moral choice" is snuff porn for sociopaths - that's why you don't see it in shows like Star Trek.

Star Trek pushed the button on the Borg in VOY "Endgame," by infecting them with a "neurolytic pathogen." So, no, we did see that sort of thing in Star Trek.

But at least now we know that TPTB thought Voyager fans were sociopaths.

One of the reasons why I am not a fan of VOY are the kind of stories like "Endgame". So its true that you actually see "snuff porn" (in a very light way) in the Trek shows that came after TNG. And also the reason why I only really care about TNG but not so much about DS9, VOY and ENT. The later ones are entertaining sci-fi but in many ways took the usual contemporary way of solving conflicts (also frankly because it made the job for the writers much more easy to produce scripts and collect the paycheck).

 

[Taelon]

And I don't like to be pedantic but somebody get a dictionary and learn what sentient means. You keep saying it but I don't think you know what it means.

Well that sentence clears it all up. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Would the virus have actually made a dent? Even the "neurolytic pathogen" used in Voyager's last episode was assimilated and adapted to in next to no time by Sphere 634, so the Borg have shown remarkable resiliency to such things.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Would the virus have actually made a dent? Even the "neurolytic pathogen" used in Voyager's last episode was assimilated and adapted to in next to no time by Sphere 634, so the Borg have shown remarkable resiliency to such things.

Sorry, but I think you've misinterpreted what happened (as did at least some authors of the articles on Memory Alpha). Assimilating the "neurolytic pathogen" was what infected the Borg Queen. It didn't represent her overcoming it.

http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/722.htm

[Borg Queen's chamber]

(Admiral Janeway is beamed it.)
QUEEN: Very clever. Hiding right on my doorstep. Were you planning to attack us from inside the Unicomplex? Not feeling talkative?
(The Queen injects her with assimilation nanobots.)
QUEEN: You and I don't need words to understand each other.

[Bridge]

(Voyager heads for the transwarp hub.)
JANEWAY: Take us in.
PARIS: Aye, Captain.

[Borg Queen's chamber]

BORG [OC]: Voyager has entered aperture eight two three. Access transwarp corridor zero nine. Redirect vessels to intercept at subjunction
(The Queen gets an electric shock. The Borg voice becomes garbled.)
BORG [OC]: Corridor. Nine. Voyager. USS. S zero zero nine transwarp transwarp intercept.
(Things go bang around her. She grabs a stanchion to stay upright.)
ADMIRAL: Must be something you assimilated.
QUEEN: What have you done?
ADMIRAL: I thought we didn't need words to understand each other.
QUEEN: You've infected us with an neurolytic pathogen.
ADMIRAL: Just enough to bring chaos to order.

So, assimilating the pathogen was what infected the Borg Queen.

QUEEN: Sphere six three four. They can still hear my thoughts.
(The Sphere changes course inside the transwarp hub.)
QUEEN: I may have assimilated your pathogen, but I also assimilated your armour technology.
(Her left leg falls off. The Queen tries to stand, and fails.)
QUEEN: Captain Janeway is about to die. If she has no future, you will never exist, and nothing that you've done here today will happen.
(The Borg Queen dies, and the Central Complex explodes.)

The Queen is admitting that she's been infected by the pathogen, not that she's cured herself; she is permanently infected. However, she's also assimilated the armor technology, so what she's saying is that she has a chance to drag the Voyager down with her, which by way of temporal paradox will undo the whole infection.

(The transwarp hub is going KaBOOM. The Sphere is firing at Voyager.)
TUVOK: Aft armour is down to six percent.
KIM: Hull breaches on decks six through twelve.
(The Sphere prepares to activate its tractor beam.)
PARIS: I can't stay ahead of them, Captain.
TUVOK: The armour is failing.

The armor is failing because the Borg have figured out how to rapidly defeat it, as per the last remark. But in transferring knowledge of how to defeat the armor to the sphere, the pathogen infection must also have been transfered. If there was intended to be no connection with the Queen's remark about assimilating the armor and the defeat of the armor, it would not have even been mentioned.

JANEWAY: Mister Paris, what's our position?
PARIS: Right where we expect it to be.
SEVEN: The transwarp network has been obliterated, Captain.
JANEWAY: We'll celebrate later. Mister Tuvok?
(Tuvok fires a torpedo, and the Sphere explodes from the inside out.)

That was so easy because the sphere was sick with the pathogen, too. The infection must have inhibited the ability of the sphere to finish off the Voyager in time.

 

[Orphalesion]

Technically the Borg don't commit genocide. They only kill in self-defense. Assimilation isn't fatal and as Seven of Nine proves, can be reverted.

Although this of course varies between episodes...

The TNG Borg committed genocide, they just strip mined planets for their technology and killed everybody that stepped into their path. That was before wide-scale assimilation was invented.

And even so, if it isn't genocide then it's still extreme mind-rape and body mutilation on a massive scale. Not really better.

 

[Sistrin]

A piece of fiction that suggests that unleashing mass destruction on some folks from a safe distance is the "moral choice" is snuff porn for sociopaths - that's why you don't see it in shows like Star Trek.

The Federation was considered to be at war with the Borg. What is the most effective means to end a war? The answer is to win it.

Win the war the killing stops, at least in the cause of that particular war. Many have argued the morality of that position.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Would the virus have actually made a dent? Even the "neurolytic pathogen" used in Voyager's last episode was assimilated and adapted to in next to no time by Sphere 634, so the Borg have shown remarkable resiliency to such things.

Sorry, but I think you've misinterpreted what happened (as did at least some authors of the articles on Memory Alpha). Assimilating the "neurolytic pathogen" was what infected the Borg Queen. It didn't represent her overcoming it.

I see. There was one other minor point; how did Sphere 634 continue to operate when the Borg Queen and the Unimatrix died/blew up? First Contact implied that when the Borg Queen dies all the drones do too.