I am investigating the world of Online Dating.

[Emher]

But yes, friendship with a chick is pretty much worth less than nothing.

Girls make terrific friends if you aren't hung up on them. Even if you are a bit, they can still be great company platonically so long as they aren't parading their SO around in front of you.

Yeah I'd agree with this as well, have had several good female friends. It's just that far too many that I have actually been interested in as something more from the start have only seen me as one as well.

Well, when in doubt I always blame Zoidberg.

ME?

That makes me so down I have put on this pretty wig:

It's amazing that the only way that men and women can be platonic friends is if the woman preserves the boundry....you mens just love to test that line all the time.

That's not true. I've a few women friends who I wouldn't sleep with for thousands of dollars because they're... uh... shall we see "unattractive?"

I know this sounds cold but it is true.

I have a female friend who is not unattractive, but it's rather I would sleep with here since she's...not too stable mentally. I love her to bits as a friend, but nothing good can come of sexin' her up.

 

[Colonel Green]

Nonsense. They may not get the girl they WANT at a given time, but that is not a universal truth.

For example: My sister-in-law (who is smoking hot) is about to marry a short stocky balding medieval literature PHD candidate. He could not POSSIBLY be further from the masculine ideal.

None of the attributes you listed actually violate the ideal I had in mind. Physical apperance and intellectual pursuits have nothing to do with how closely you fit the ideal of masculinity in regards to "being the man" in a relationship.

He is also extremely shy, soft-spoken, anxiety-ridden and obsessively non-confrontational, practically a doormat. She likes him because he's smart and is nice to her.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Nonsense. They may not get the girl they WANT at a given time, but that is not a universal truth.

For example: My sister-in-law (who is smoking hot) is about to marry a short stocky balding medieval literature PHD candidate. He could not POSSIBLY be further from the masculine ideal.

None of the attributes you listed actually violate the ideal I had in mind. Physical apperance and intellectual pursuits have nothing to do with how closely you fit the ideal of masculinity in regards to "being the man" in a relationship.

He is also extremely shy, soft-spoken, anxiety-ridden and obsessively non-confrontational, practically a doormat. She likes him because he's smart and is nice to her.

Yet you just agreed that no-one wants a "doormat" as a lover, indeed as a friend.

If a man ever shows the slightest sign that he might desire the protection of a woman, or look up to a woman, or desire to care for children while she works, or require a woman to keep him emotionally secure, she loses any and all interest, because he doesn't measure up to what society expects of a man in a relationship.

 

[Colonel Green]

None of the attributes you listed actually violate the ideal I had in mind. Physical apperance and intellectual pursuits have nothing to do with how closely you fit the ideal of masculinity in regards to "being the man" in a relationship.

He is also extremely shy, soft-spoken, anxiety-ridden and obsessively non-confrontational, practically a doormat. She likes him because he's smart and is nice to her.

Yet you just agreed that no-one wants a "doormat" as a lover, indeed as a friend.

No I didn't. I agreed that many people confused "nice" with "doormat". I never contended that there aren't some people who may prefer a doormat, rare though they may be.

 

[sidious618]

Nice guys don't finish last. That's just another excuse. Nice guys end up with the girl. People who let others run all over them, thinking that that is how you are nice don't get the girl. Nobody wants a pushover for a boyfriend. Hell, I don't really want a pushover for a friend.

Well, I would interpret this as- well, I'm sure you can guess- as "nobody wants a man who isn't "manly" enough in their lives". Men who don't conform to the ideal of masculinity don't "get the girl".

No, I don't want a girlfriend who is a pushover either. Trust me, I'm not at all into "manliness" or other such nonsense.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Nice guys don't finish last. That's just another excuse. Nice guys end up with the girl. People who let others run all over them, thinking that that is how you are nice don't get the girl. Nobody wants a pushover for a boyfriend. Hell, I don't really want a pushover for a friend.

Well, I would interpret this as- well, I'm sure you can guess- as "nobody wants a man who isn't "manly" enough in their lives". Men who don't conform to the ideal of masculinity don't "get the girl".

No, I don't want a girlfriend who is a pushover either. Trust me, I'm not at all into "manliness" or other such nonsense.

Well, this attitude that those who are not aggressive or tough enough don't deserve any of your time certainly seems to equate your views with this sort of thinking.

 

[sidious618]

Well, this attitude that those who are not aggressive or tough enough don't deserve any of your time certainly seems to equate your views with this sort of thinking.

I didn't say anything about tough or aggressive. I don't want to be with someone who has no opinions of their own and automatically agrees with everything I say or want to do. That'd be boring.

 

[John Picard]

Well, this attitude that those who are not aggressive or tough enough don't deserve any of your time certainly seems to equate your views with this sort of thinking.

I didn't say anything about tough or aggressive. I don't want to be with someone who has no opinions of their own and automatically agrees with everything I say or want to do. That'd be boring.

Or waits on you hand and foot and/or follows you around the house like a puppy. I had a G/F like that and it drove me nuts.

 

[RoJoHen]

I also kind of mentally matured in a weird way. I never had that horny teenager phase, and I've always been way too mature for my age. At holiday dinners, when all the other kids would leave the table to go off and play, I would stay sitting with the adults and just listen to their conversations. In high school, all of my friends were girls. I never had any real male influences (my dad is incredibly tame; I'm not sure I've ever heard him talk about sex my entire life).

It was until my sophomore year of college that I finally started hanging out with other guys on a regular basis. They cursed and farted and talked about lots of inappropriate sexual things, and it took me a lot of time (and a lot of alcohol) to allow myself to get involved in that kind of stuff. I think that kind of male-male bonding is very important. Now I'm 24 and I have an amazing group of guys that are my best friends. When I moved a little over a month ago, it broke my heart, and I spent the first two days very depressed because my friends were no longer living down the street. But I've already gone back and visited twice since then, so I've gotten over that.

The point that I'm making is: I think that male bonding kind of thing needed to happen before I realized I wanted a relationship. I needed to be broken of my old "one of the girls" persona.

I have my group of guy friends. Now I'm finally ready for a girlfriend. And I think knowing that you're ready is a very important first step. I was never really looking before.

I find this very confusing. Rather jaw-dropping gender stereotyping.

Your dad isn't a "real" male influence because he's "tame" and doesn't talk about sex? Real men have to conform to this rather offensive picture of maleness you've conjured up? By the gods, do you really think that men and boys are only capable of talking about sex and drinking beer and laughing at farts? Why do you seem to think male-male bonding means adherence to these somewhat offensive stereotypes?

Furthermore, if you have to alter who you are to fit in, then I doubt these people are really your friends. Friends accept you as you are, not on the basis of your conformity to ridiculous gender stereotypes.

As someone who has always had close friends of both sexes, let me tell you there is no difference between bonding with a male and with a female friend.

It was late when I typed all that, and I had a feeling it would come across this way. I'm not really sure how to explain.

I've always wanted a close set of male friends, but I never had them. I think it's important to have friends of both sexes, but for me the scales were very heavily tipped in the female direction. It wasn't that the guys changed my behavior, more that they finally helped me be comfortably expressing myself.

My family never talks about relationships or sex. My female friends never talk about it either. It wasn't until I found my male friends that this idea of me dating someone ever came up. They allowed me to be a more well-rounded person by bringing out the part of me that I hadn't been able to express before.

Now that I have them, I am a lot more comfortable with who I am. I actually have a group of people I can go to with questions. I went on about the sex-talk and inappropriateness and the "stereotypical" male gender role not to cause offense, because believe me, we're anything but stereotypical guys. It was just a type of behavior that I hadn't experienced before, and it helped me be more comfortable with me.

 

[Colonel Green]

^ Same here. My wife is smarter than me (law school grad), and I like it that way. She challenges my preconceptions, keeps me on my toes.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^ Same here. My wife is smarter than me (law school grad), and I like it that way. She challenges my preconceptions, keeps me on my toes.

What does being "smarter" have anything to do with this?

 

[Colonel Green]

^ Same here. My wife is smarter than me (law school grad), and I like it that way. She challenges my preconceptions, keeps me on my toes.

What does being "smarter" have anything to do with this?

In my experience smart people are generally (although not always, as my soon-to-be brother-in-law shows) more likely to be able to challenge one's own opinions and preconceptions with reasoned arguments. Dumb people usually have opinions too, but it's ability to form cogent arguments that makes difference between intransigent and intriguing.

In my dating experience I've also found that intelligent women are more likely to hold and defend their own opinions (within reason), rather than smiling and nodding when they feel that they're in over their head.

I find intelligent women are less likely to be doormats or to be intransigent, both of which I personally find to be unattractive qualities.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^ Same here. My wife is smarter than me (law school grad), and I like it that way. She challenges my preconceptions, keeps me on my toes.

What does being "smarter" have anything to do with this?

In my experience smart people are generally (although not always, as my soon-to-be brother-in-law shows) more likely to be able to challenge one's own opinions and preconceptions with reasoned arguments. Dumb people usually have opinions too, but it's ability to form cogent arguments that makes difference between intransigent and intriguing.

In my dating experience I've also found that intelligent women are more likely to hold and defend their own opinions (within reason), rather than smiling and nodding when they feel that they're in over their head.

I find intelligent women are less likely to be doormats or to be intransigent, both of which I personally find to be unattractive qualities.

Then why is her being "smarter than you" the thing you like? You didn't say "I find intelligent women attractive", you said you liked that she was smarter than you.

 

[sidious618]

He explained it above.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

He explained it above.

No he didn't.

 

[Amaris]

I also kind of mentally matured in a weird way. I never had that horny teenager phase, and I've always been way too mature for my age. At holiday dinners, when all the other kids would leave the table to go off and play, I would stay sitting with the adults and just listen to their conversations. In high school, all of my friends were girls. I never had any real male influences (my dad is incredibly tame; I'm not sure I've ever heard him talk about sex my entire life).

It was until my sophomore year of college that I finally started hanging out with other guys on a regular basis. They cursed and farted and talked about lots of inappropriate sexual things, and it took me a lot of time (and a lot of alcohol) to allow myself to get involved in that kind of stuff. I think that kind of male-male bonding is very important. Now I'm 24 and I have an amazing group of guys that are my best friends. When I moved a little over a month ago, it broke my heart, and I spent the first two days very depressed because my friends were no longer living down the street. But I've already gone back and visited twice since then, so I've gotten over that.

The point that I'm making is: I think that male bonding kind of thing needed to happen before I realized I wanted a relationship. I needed to be broken of my old "one of the girls" persona.

I have my group of guy friends. Now I'm finally ready for a girlfriend. And I think knowing that you're ready is a very important first step. I was never really looking before.

My best friend just went to Texas and asked a mutual friend of ours (the three of us graduated high school together) for her hand in marriage. They had dated for all of 2 months. Years ago, this same friend (the girl) had admitted to me that she had a crush on me when we were in high school. I asked her why she didn't talk to me about it then. She said that over time, even though she wanted to ask, she saw me more as a big brother. At the time, I simply accepted that. In hindsight, I should have pursued the opportunity.

As it turns out, she has fallen for my best friend, and I couldn't be happier. Both of them are good people and deserve each other. What I thought was so sweet was they both talked to me about it, and were worried that I would feel hurt by what had developed. I told them that we were all friends and that regardless of this new situation, we would remain friends, and that I was happy for them, which is true. Although I would be lying if I said I didn't feel a twinge of regret for not more actively pursuing a relationship back in high school. I just didn't know back then how she felt.

Confidence is important because people do respond positively to confident people, as long as they aren't totally up themselves. As you said, if you believe you are "worth" companionship/a relationship then others will too.

I know you said you weren't judging but your comment on unattractive men with hot women reminds me of the "out of my/his league" stuff. That is nonsense in my opinion. It is any imaginary barrier created by a lack of confidence or an over inflated opinion on yourself and should be ignored...though if you lack confidence that is easier said than done.

Part of that may be the OCD talking, too. Guys who don't clean themselves (brush teeth, bathe) just make my eye twitch.

Female friends can be very helpful in working up your confidence as well, so don't be afraid to ask them to help you out.

That's true. However, aside from the ones who are married or are engaged to be married, I no longer have any single female friends.

Actually, that's a good idea. If you're attracted to a friend, flirt with her a bit. If she seems to be expressing disinterest, say you're just practicing on her. Should neatly sidestep any uncomfortableness.

I'll file that one away to try out in the future. Sounds like a really good way to sidestep awkwardness.

J.

 

[RoJoHen]

To those of you who have tried online dating and failed...

Did you meet people that you had awesome conversations with online, but then the relationship kind of fell apart once you met them in person? Also, how long did you wait before setting up a real date with them?

Or did you just not meet anyone worthwhile at all?

I ask because this girl that I'm talking to almost seems too good to be true.

 

[Amaris]

To those of you who have tried online dating and failed...

Did you meet people that you had awesome conversations with online, but then the relationship kind of fell apart once you met them in person? Also, how long did you wait before setting up a real date with them?

Or did you just not meet anyone worthwhile at all?

I ask because this girl that I'm talking to almost seems too good to be true.

One of the girls I ended up meeting outside of eHarmony was very sweet, like she was online, was very lovely, like she was online. We had a lot in common. Where it fell apart was when she told me that I was "a nice guy, but I'm just looking for a friend right now".

I hope it works out with you and the girl!

J.

 

[sidious618]

To those of you who have tried online dating and failed...

Did you meet people that you had awesome conversations with online, but then the relationship kind of fell apart once you met them in person? Also, how long did you wait before setting up a real date with them?

Or did you just not meet anyone worthwhile at all?

I ask because this girl that I'm talking to almost seems too good to be true.

Just don't meet with her in a dark alley or at a meat packing warehouse.

 

[RoJoHen]

To those of you who have tried online dating and failed...

Did you meet people that you had awesome conversations with online, but then the relationship kind of fell apart once you met them in person? Also, how long did you wait before setting up a real date with them?

Or did you just not meet anyone worthwhile at all?

I ask because this girl that I'm talking to almost seems too good to be true.

Just don't meet with her in a dark alley or at a meat packing warehouse.

Well, no, I was thinking a restaurant for dinner and some drinks.