Great post, thank you.
I only abbreiviated it for size, the whole post was great.
It certainly was smug.
Humanity in the TNG era is more buggered than they let on
- Thread starter Lance
- Start date
It certainly was smug.
That would be impractical. Even the federation doesn't have the resources to oversee the education of every inhabited planet they encounter.
TOS simply made the 23rd Century exactly like the 1960s but in space with little to no difference. Which is...kind of lazy.
No one cared that the TOS Vulcans were doing this. Apparently they're allowed to be arrogant and smug.
So what, we should never ever ever try to be better? We're always going to be exactly the same as our Neanderthal predecessors and should never expect we'll ever learn a thing?
TOS' writers just made the future exactly like the present.
Yes, the TNG crew could be smug and arrogant...but considering how lazy and backwards everyone else was and how NO ONE ever appreciated Humanity saving the Galaxy from threats...can you blame them?
One thing I cannot reconcile with the idealistic TNG future is the concept of having ranks on starships. I can't imagine all these enlightened people being cool with one guy deciding the fate of hundreds of individuals, with everyone else acting as cogs in a machine. It's kind of Borg if you ask me. But that's just something I suspend my disbelief for in order to have the show. After all, the show can only follow the decisions of a few people.
Depending on what interpretation you want to go with, as it varies depending on the director, the episode, the movie, and whatever, the ranks on the ships are more "ceremonial" than they are any kind of militarized system of "cogs in machine."
But, ceremonial or not, in any system you still need order otherwise you have chaos. Even in a typical, non-military, job you have ranks. Sure, there's not lieutenants, commanders, captains, admirals, etc. But you have your part-time workers, your full-time workers, your team-leaders, your assistant managers, your managers, your district managers, your CEOs there's still a system there.
If there's not a system of "people who make decisions" and "people who carry out the decisions" then you don't have order you have chaos, which is anarchy.
You speak of "one person making the decision for hundreds of lives" but what's the alternative? EVERYONE making the decision? How do you go with what decision is best? Would you have time to analyze all of the options and carry one out? What if in the end people still don't agree and don't do their part in the final decision to see that it gets carried out?
There's nothing unenlightened or "Borg-like" about having an orderly system of operating things. In any society you're going to need someone to lead and make the hard decisions and then people to see that those decisions get carried out and people who actually perform the tasks. There were plenty of times in TNG where we see Picard take-in suggestions or discuss a situation with this team-leaders (the senior staff, all who oversaw an area of the ship) and then make what he felt was the best decision but then there are crunch-time situations where he has to make a snap decision.
Further not everyone is going to be qualified to make big decisions. If they listened to Worf 90% of the time they'd be charging into battle or starting conflicts because everytime someone did something slightly wrong he'd want to start aggressive action. We're shown in "Tapestry" that alternate-future Picard's guarded life made him meeker and less likely to take risks, get noticed, and be able to make big decisions that'd lead him to command. We SEE Barclay struggled with the most basic of decision-making, or at least being able to get his ideas out. So, yeah, in some cases you need someone to make decisions and others to follow them.
It's orderly. Not unenlightened.
"Bog-like" would be if either by training/brain-washing or technological implementation everyone is "wired the same way/together" in order to make the same decision at the same time.
But, ceremonial or not, in any system you still need order otherwise you have chaos. Even in a typical, non-military, job you have ranks. Sure, there's not lieutenants, commanders, captains, admirals, etc. But you have your part-time workers, your full-time workers, your team-leaders, your assistant managers, your managers, your district managers, your CEOs there's still a system there.
If there's not a system of "people who make decisions" and "people who carry out the decisions" then you don't have order you have chaos, which is anarchy.
You speak of "one person making the decision for hundreds of lives" but what's the alternative? EVERYONE making the decision? How do you go with what decision is best? Would you have time to analyze all of the options and carry one out? What if in the end people still don't agree and don't do their part in the final decision to see that it gets carried out?
There's nothing unenlightened or "Borg-like" about having an orderly system of operating things. In any society you're going to need someone to lead and make the hard decisions and then people to see that those decisions get carried out and people who actually perform the tasks. There were plenty of times in TNG where we see Picard take-in suggestions or discuss a situation with this team-leaders (the senior staff, all who oversaw an area of the ship) and then make what he felt was the best decision but then there are crunch-time situations where he has to make a snap decision.
Further not everyone is going to be qualified to make big decisions. If they listened to Worf 90% of the time they'd be charging into battle or starting conflicts because everytime someone did something slightly wrong he'd want to start aggressive action. We're shown in "Tapestry" that alternate-future Picard's guarded life made him meeker and less likely to take risks, get noticed, and be able to make big decisions that'd lead him to command. We SEE Barclay struggled with the most basic of decision-making, or at least being able to get his ideas out. So, yeah, in some cases you need someone to make decisions and others to follow them.
It's orderly. Not unenlightened.
"Bog-like" would be if either by training/brain-washing or technological implementation everyone is "wired the same way/together" in order to make the same decision at the same time.
It's borg-like that one being in charge (borg queen / captain) makes the important decision and the rest of them (drones /lower ranking crew) carries out their orders. It's orderly, that's exactly what the Borg will tell you. "We only seek to raise quality of life."
I'm not sure what other structure they could use, but there could be some futuristic structure where there is no captain, or everyone has an important role and no one is a useless lower rank crewmember that cleans the turbolift and is miserable at his job. Just like having a working system with no money is unimaginable to me, I could also suspend my disbelief that an orderly ship could function without traditional ranks. It probably wouldn't make a good TV show though.
I'm not sure what other structure they could use, but there could be some futuristic structure where there is no captain, or everyone has an important role and no one is a useless lower rank crewmember that cleans the turbolift and is miserable at his job. Just like having a working system with no money is unimaginable to me, I could also suspend my disbelief that an orderly ship could function without traditional ranks. It probably wouldn't make a good TV show though.
Fermat's Last Theorem does have a proof, however it comes from people in the 20th century. No wonder Picard doesn't acknowledge it.
In his mind only superior evolve people could solve the theorem.
The military (and make no mistake, Starfleet is the military) simply can't function that way. It can't work any other way than what it is: a clearly defined hierarchy of ranks. That's efficiency and order, and it must exist. Otherwise there would be chaos, and nothing would get done.
And the Borg analogy really doesn't work, because it makes no allowance for the fact that in the real military, all officers and crew can give orders to those under them. That's what 'hierarchy' means - the captain gives orders to his/her subordinates, who in turn give orders to theirs, who give orders to theirs, all the way down the line. With the Borg, the central collective consciousness is the only one doing that. There is no hierarchy in the Borg.
^ The Borg Queen isn't a ruler; she's an avatar.
Yeah that's the explanation but in practice she's kind of like the captain, making the big decisions while the drones make very small ones. Waves her hand and passes some orders down to the drones mentally.
But with Starfleet's hierarchy, the lower down the rank the more drone like you are. "He hasn't earned the right to question my orders" - Janeway commenting on a lower ranking crew member. Try to challenge orders from above and you'll get Jellico yelling at you about shift rotations "I don't want to talk about it, get it done."
But with Starfleet's hierarchy, the lower down the rank the more drone like you are. "He hasn't earned the right to question my orders" - Janeway commenting on a lower ranking crew member. Try to challenge orders from above and you'll get Jellico yelling at you about shift rotations "I don't want to talk about it, get it done."
Not my take on it, the Queen was a individual who had control over the slave-drones.
A very egotisical and vindictive individual at that.
I don't see her as just a mouth piece for the collective the way Picard was. Picard was a pawn, the Queen isn't.
At the end of First Contact, she acted to save her own life. Why would a disposable and easily replaceable avatar for the collective do that?
Only because the collective does.
Yeah, we've seen that the Borg Overmind forces its will on unwilling hosts. If the Borg were truly a Collective they'd be affected more by the various minds they've absorbed over the millennia but they remain the same hostile force as always.
Clearly there's some other controlling mind forcing itself on all the unwilling Drones.
Clearly there's some other controlling mind forcing itself on all the unwilling Drones.
At the end of First Contact, she acted to save her own life. Why would a disposable and easily replaceable avatar for the collective do that?
Also, at the end of First Contact, when the queen is destroyed all the other drones just stop working.
Doesn't seem very collective to me, unless somehow the whole group mind was contained within her body.
An avatar is something that represents but does not contain, so she certainly isn't an avatar.
Although, if you go by the novelverse explanation...
The Queen is the leftover consciousness of Sedin, a Caeliar who basically created the first Borg thousands of years ago.
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