Humanity in the TNG era is more buggered than they let on

[velour]

It's shown in Star Trek the way Picard consistently denies Worf ...

It should be noted, that as a security officer, Worf's first duty is the protection of the ship and her crew, yet Picard always seems to "know better" than his own security officer.

ETA: I think my problem is the way they made humans the "civilized whites" where the Klingons are "the rest." It makes me, a Hispanic man, very uncomfortable because attitudes like this is very pervasive in society and very hurtful. Culture is important, and TNG had difficulty portraying that in their first seasons.

The captain has the prerogative to reject the suggestions of his underlings. The question would then be, what were Picard's motives for rejecting Worf's recommendation? Picard might have had different reasons at different times.

But in general, did Picard have a low regard for Worf because of Worf being a Klingon? and which then led Picard to deny Worf as often as your video showed? I suppose that's a possibility, if that is what you were suggesting.

I doubt that is what the writers would have intended though, because Picard is suppose to be so enlightened and because in the TNG universe people supposedly don't think that way anymore. But who really knows.

This brings up another question. How did Worf attain his position as weapons officer in the first place? Did Worf get his job because of political correctness of the times? Is it possible that Starfleet wanted to show how progressive they were by having a Klingon in such a high position?

Did Worf attend Starfleet academy? What were his qualifications to earn a position on the Enterprise bridge anyway?

Did stereotyping have anything to do with Worf being assigned to the position of weapons officer? You know, Klingon's have a thing for warfare. So perhaps, stereotyping did exist in the TNG era. But then again, Klingon's did display a fondness for brutishness and combat and crudeness. So was it really stereotyping?

As for Worf, even though he was raised by humans, he still displayed those traits of brutishness and combativeness. Is it possible that Picard had those same thoughts about Worf and therefore had doubts about Worf's opinions? Or maybe we're just reading too much into Picard's rejection of Worf's suggestions? I don't know.

 

[Anwar]

There's a difference between pride and arrogance.

Pride = "I feel good about what we've done."

Arrogance = "We did all these things so therefore we're better than you, nyah nyah nyah."

So the guy should just put himself down to appease his less-intelligent less-capable neighbors who waste their time not trying to better themselves?

It may not be likable...but it's true that they are better than the other guys. Especially when EVERYONE ELSE around them keep relying on them to save their wastrel behinds.

 

[T'Girl]

So the guy should just put himself down to appease his less-intelligent less-capable neighbors who waste their time not trying to better themselves?

Putting themselves down would not be required, just don't be arrogant. Their neighbors aren't automatically "less," but perhaps simply people with different objectives and ultimate goals.

It may not be likable...but it's true that they are better than the other guys.

How exactly would Picard himself be better? Every positive personal attribute of Picard's that you could point out, realistically I could point to someone today with the same. No there are no aliens about, but there are foreigners from far away places.

His position on Human rights (alien rights) are hardly unknown today.

Diplomacy before fighting, wait Anwar while I assemble a crowd.

There's absolutely no indication that Picard beliefs are universally held by all Humans, and certainly not every being in the Federation.

Picard's uncommon problem with children (not apparent with other officers) during the early seasons shows Picard to be fully capable of possessing personal flaws. His personal need for revenge upon the Borg in FC shows the same. Picard is basically a 21st century man living in the 24th century.

He's no different than us.

 

[Anwar]

How exactly would Picard himself be better? Every positive personal attribute of Picard's that you could point out, realistically I could point to someone today with the same. No there are no aliens about, but there are foreigners from far away places.

Do 24th Century people pollute their own world due to greed and sloth? Does their society allow its females to be murdered in family honor killings? Do they engage in Slave trade? Do they threaten others with weaponry that would only destroy everyone including themselves in macho nation flexing?

I'm generalizing, but bottom line is that in general 24th Century people seem to have left our worst 20st Century traits behind and grown up a bit.

And frankly whenever anyone screws up it's them who clean up the mess (usually with no thanks for their efforts).

If they are arrogant...well it's kind of deserved considering the people they're surrounded by who refuse to grow up.

 

[T'Girl]

Do 24th Century people pollute their own world due to greed and sloth?

That's a technological advantage. The city I live in is 88% powered by hydroelectric, but not everyone on Earth lives in a region that makes that possible.

Does their society allow its females to be murdered in family honor killings?

My current society doesn't allow that.

Now do one or more of the Federation's member species allow that? It's possible, they have death duels, and child arranged marriages.

Do they engage in Slave trade?

Yes, The Perfect Mate. Picard was fully engaged in the slave trade.

Do they threaten others with weaponry that would only destroy everyone including themselves in macho nation flexing?

Let's see, Tasha Yar's home world comes to mind, colonized by future Humans. Humans fighting Humans over ultimate control of a planet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It may not be likable...but it's true that they are better than the other guys. Especially when EVERYONE ELSE around them keep relying on them to save their wastrel behinds.

Do you have a better house, or car, or 401K plan, or whatever, than your next door neighbor? If so, do you parade back and forth in front of their house bragging about it? Because that's effectively the same as what we're discussing here.

 

[Anwar]

That's a technological advantage.

Which they achieved through their intellect and own efforts. Perks of making something of themselves.

My current society doesn't allow that.

I'm speaking of 20th Century Humanity as a whole which still does allow that.

Yes, The Perfect Mate. Picard was fully engaged in the slave trade.

Not exactly slavery when she has no problems with it or illusions over what's happening. Plus with her powers of attraction it's kind of clear she'd have plenty of power over her mate.

I'm talking about real sadistic slave stuff.

Let's see, Tasha Yar's home world comes to mind, colonized by future Humans. Humans fighting Humans over ultimate control of a planet.

And the Feds rightfully don't think very highly of them and see them as throwbacks.

Seriously, I don't see what's the point of having the 24th Century guys be WORSE than people today aside from appeasing our 20th Century Egos.

 

[Anwar]

It may not be likable...but it's true that they are better than the other guys. Especially when EVERYONE ELSE around them keep relying on them to save their wastrel behinds.

Do you have a better house, or car, or 401K plan, or whatever, than your next door neighbor? If so, do you parade back and forth in front of their house bragging about it? Because that's effectively the same as what we're discussing here.

If I go around constantly saving said Neighbor's rear and they never show any gratitude for it or make any effort to look after themselves so I won't have to always put myself on the line for them...then I've earned that right. Because the other guy is making no effort to look after himself or improve himself and just gets offended when he sees there are better ways just because of some attitude.

 

[Trekker4747]

T'Girl :
Let me ask you a question, you're Transgendered, right? (If I am interpreting your user name correctly) as a TG woman you've probably had to fight a nunber of biases against you, ran into people refusing to call you by your true gender, in dating knowing you could be taking a physical risk or at the very least an emotional one when revealing your past to a lover and so much more.

Even look how much homosexuals are still struggling for equality and acceptance.

Doesn't it say something about the progression of society that these types of biases and turmoils no longer afflict homosexuals or transgendered persons in the future? That a person can be who they are and that is that?

And I know we've not really encountered many transgdndered or homosexual aliens of hunans in Trek but those we have and just the nature of everything we've seen and heard tells us that humans in 24c no longer hold biases or problems with people with "alternative" lifestyles.

Something like that should be a hint on how people in the 24c are better than us. That people are still struggling to be accepted as who they are regardless of their race, gender, sexual orientation or sexual identity says something about our society. That people tout "family values" as a way to say they're against fair treatment for homosexuals (because apparently you can't be gay and part of a family) says a tertible thing about nearly half of the electorate in America.

In the 24c? Not an issue. Society has progressed and accepted an aspect of humanity we still struggle with. That's an improvement. That makes them better.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It may not be likable...but it's true that they are better than the other guys. Especially when EVERYONE ELSE around them keep relying on them to save their wastrel behinds.

Do you have a better house, or car, or 401K plan, or whatever, than your next door neighbor? If so, do you parade back and forth in front of their house bragging about it? Because that's effectively the same as what we're discussing here.

If I go around constantly saving said Neighbor's rear and they never show any gratitude for it or make any effort to look after themselves so I won't have to always put myself on the line for them...then I've earned that right. Because the other guy is making no effort to look after himself or improve himself and just gets offended when he sees there are better ways just because of some attitude.

I see. So let's run with that...you're Canadian, right? If members of the Canadian military showed up at YOUR front door and constantly bragged about how much better than YOU they are, since they put their lives on the line for YOU, then I'm guessing that wouldn't sit well with you, right? By your own logic, they would have earned the right to beat YOU over the head with it.

 

[Trekker4747]

Not a very sturdy strawman, but....

 

[Anwar]

Do you have a better house, or car, or 401K plan, or whatever, than your next door neighbor? If so, do you parade back and forth in front of their house bragging about it? Because that's effectively the same as what we're discussing here.

If I go around constantly saving said Neighbor's rear and they never show any gratitude for it or make any effort to look after themselves so I won't have to always put myself on the line for them...then I've earned that right. Because the other guy is making no effort to look after himself or improve himself and just gets offended when he sees there are better ways just because of some attitude.

I see. So let's run with that...you're Canadian, right? If members of the Canadian military showed up at YOUR front door and constantly bragged about how much better than YOU they are, since they put their lives on the line for YOU, then I'm guessing that wouldn't sit well with you, right? By your own logic, they would have earned the right to beat YOU over the head with it.

If I was a lazy wastrel who refused to do anything but rely on them to save me from trouble, I never make any attempts to get out of trouble myself and I never ever show ANY appreciation for these guys...

...I'm kind of a dick who deserves it.

 

[Kruezerman]

It's funny how you just assume everybody around you is lazy, as if it's their fault that they don't preach and come out as boisterous about their achievements.

 

[T'Girl]

T'Girl :
Let me ask you a question, you're Transgendered, right?

Yes.

Doesn't it say something about the progression of society that these types of biases and turmoils no longer afflict homosexuals or transgendered persons in the future?

One of my frequent (and long winded) criticisms about the society depicted in the future is the utter lack of gays of any sort, it's one of the reasons I personal don't regard it as a "utopia." There has never been a clearly identified transgender Starfleet officer, while clearly identified heterosexuals abound.

All marriages have been cis, we hear of dates, relationships and sexual hook ups, but none are GLBT, not on screen. That's in over 700 episodes.

Either non-heterosexuals are being repressed, and far worst than today, or in some fashion have been made to "not exist."

 

[Trekker4747]

T'Girl :
Let me ask you a question, you're Transgendered, right?

Yes.

Doesn't it say something about the progression of society that these types of biases and turmoils no longer afflict homosexuals or transgendered persons in the future?

One of my frequent (and long winded) criticisms about the society depicted in the future is the utter lack of gays of any sort, it's one of the reasons I personal don't regard it as a "utopia." There has never been a clearly identified transgender Starfleet officer, while clearly identified heterosexuals abound.

All marriages have been cis, we hear of dates, relationships and sexual hook ups, but none are GLBT, not on screen. That's in over 700 episodes.

Either non-heterosexuals are being repressed, and far worst than today, or in some fashion have been made to "not exist."

Or, 20th century TV producers are skittish about stepping outside safe-norms. IIRC at one point when Guinan is talking to Lal about love there were supposed to be some same-sex couples in Ten-Forward, Berman vetoed that idea, Frakes had expressed his desire to go with a male actor for Soren in "The Outcast" (Soren being a member of an androgynous race) but it was felt safer to go with a female actor so as to not bother anyone too much by seeing Frakes "loving a man" on screen.

So the lack of homosexual persons or transgendered persons in Trek has more to do with present-day biases than it does presumed future ones.

Keep in mind in, "The Host" Beverly's objection to continuing her relationship with a member of the Trill race had more to do with uncertainty on who "he" would be at points in the future and less to do with "him" now being in a female host.

Riker also fell in love with an sexless, androgynous, alien as opposed to his "usual" type of much more conventionally attractive women. Granted, this alien identified xerself as being "female" but, still, and androgynous alien who didn't have female parts and Riker fell for xer.

So there's certainly implications there that in the 24c gender-identity and homosexuality isn't given much of a second though, looked down are, and is just as much a part of life as anything else. No need to call any attention to someone being gay or transgendered than there is a need to call attention to someone not being human. Everyone is who they are and that's that.

But, sure, go ahead and assume that homosexuality and gender-identity "disorders" have been eradicated in the future simply because TV produces in the '80s and '90s wanted to play it safe and not potentially scare off viewers who may be bothered by people of different sexual identities and preferences.

I'd rather read between the lines of everything we see and told and just assume it's there and no one makes a big deal about it.

After-all, Quark received SRS surgery in "Profit and Lace" (which included the reduction of his ears, a Ferengi sexual zone) and no one really thought much of it. In fact it was a planned IDEA, implying such surgeries may hold some commonality that they're seen as something that can be done and done easily.

In the same episode where Quark has his erogenous ears REDUCED he quickly, and easily, touches the erogenous zones of a male Ferengi. So, in effect, Quark had his manhood reduced/removed and willingly and without any fight, touched the manhood of another man.

As shitty of an episode as that is, again, we can read between the lines and see how sexuality is largely handled in the 24c that a MALE FERENGI is totally okay with getting his balls cut-off and then fondling the balls of another man.

 

[Anwar]

It's funny how you just assume everybody around you is lazy, as if it's their fault that they don't preach and come out as boisterous about their achievements.

It's their fault for never doing anything with their lives and trying to improve themselves and letting the "arrogant guys" protect them instead of trying to do it themselves and never ever showing a sign of gratitude for this.

Up against that...TNG Humans have a right to be arrogant. Whenever they run into anyone who acknowledge that there's a way to go they show respect (the Malcorian Prime Minister in First Contact).

 

[Kruezerman]

Why do you assume they're not doing anything?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

To think that anyone ever has the "right" to be arrogant...that is, in itself, arrogant.

 

[Gov Kodos]

To think that anyone ever has the "right" to be arrogant...that is, in itself, arrogant.

You've reached hubris at that point.

 

[Marsden]

To think that anyone ever has the "right" to be arrogant...that is, in itself, arrogant.

You've reached hubris at that point.

Sounds like Khan. But even though he was arrogant and felt like he was better than everyone, he still seem easier to be around than TNG crew season 1.