Human lifespan in Trek
- Thread starter Penta
- Start date
1. I know 'in universe' it seems that just about any humanoid species can interbreed with another. In real life this is totally preposterous. Even if the ancient guys seeded worlds to make some kind of predestined evolution(kinda screwing up the whole theory really?) how is it that humans and vulcans could interbreed and not humans and chimps? or humans and sea slugs?
2. I'd say given that McCoys 137 seemed kinda old in universe the average lifespan may even be less than that. Maybe 100-120. This seems kinda pessimistic though. I'd assume by the real 24th century it could be possible that by reversing cellular damage people may have no maximum lifespan. However with mortality and aging being such an important theme to contemporary audiences i can see why they would be so conservative.
2. I'd say given that McCoys 137 seemed kinda old in universe the average lifespan may even be less than that. Maybe 100-120. This seems kinda pessimistic though. I'd assume by the real 24th century it could be possible that by reversing cellular damage people may have no maximum lifespan. However with mortality and aging being such an important theme to contemporary audiences i can see why they would be so conservative.
Yup, Darwin was dead wrong in the Trek universe. Just like Galilei was dead wrong in ours, or Newton, or no doubt also Einstein. Their theories are all still good local approximations of reality (or Trek pseudoreality) if one doesn't insist on always considering the big picture, the smallest detail, or the most extreme circumstances.
No doubt evolution on those seeded and manipulated planets proceeds more or less at random, producing things like primates or fish or lizards - and then the perversion gene kicks in, hijacking one of the evolutionary lines and twisting and twisting and twisting until out comes a humanoid with a very specific genetic makeup, two hands, two legs, and interstellarly compatible genitalia. That's the whole purpose of the project - to create humanoids that can interact and interbreed, so that they will carry on for those ancient protohumanoids the heritage of "life as they knew it".
The project won't bother with making Cardassian voles compatible with Earth voles. It only manipulates those species it has chosen as its victims for humanoidization. And it will huff and puff until the victim species is indeed made compatible, even if the starting point is something absurd like a fish (Antedeans) or a cat (Caitians and Kzinti) or a lemur-like protomonkey (humans) or a scaly little lizard (Cardassians), unlikely to ever develop into an intelligent and social biped on its own.
The project probably decides upon just one intelligent biped per planet at a time. When the dinosaurs left Earth in their big starships, the project decided to do monkeys next - but only one sort of them, not all of them. No doubt humans could interbreed with the sea slugs of Abyssia III, provided the project had decided that sea slugs should become the intelligent bipedal species of Abyssia III.
Really, the project described in "The Chase" is so vast in scale that it just wouldn't pay to do it piecemeal or modestly. If we assume the most audacious methods and aims and capabilities for it, we're probably erring on the side of caution.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm definitely out of my league in this company as I'm only fully familiar with the original series. I was one of those sitting in front of my black and white t.v. for the series premiere in 1966 who was mentally and emotionally captured and never quite shook it off. I saw all the movies but mostly only once or twice. I dearly anticipated all the series but for various reasons was never able to see all the episodes of any of them so my knowledge is full of big holes.
I always just assumed though that any offspring between worlds must have been planned babies who were test tube engineered, which seemed like it could be child's play in a few hundred years. Even given the fact they all may have sprung from the same ancient dna, as someone commented earlier they should have been at least as far apart genetically as we are from chimps.
Does anybody know if there was ever any indication in any of the shows that any of these hybrids just happened naturally without a little help from science or was it just never directly addressed?
I always just assumed though that any offspring between worlds must have been planned babies who were test tube engineered, which seemed like it could be child's play in a few hundred years. Even given the fact they all may have sprung from the same ancient dna, as someone commented earlier they should have been at least as far apart genetically as we are from chimps.
Does anybody know if there was ever any indication in any of the shows that any of these hybrids just happened naturally without a little help from science or was it just never directly addressed?
Some suggest that Mika (Dukat's second hybrid child) was born without help. I don't think that's possible...or if she WAS born without help, I suspect she would be susceptible to genetic disease and will not live long without serious medical intervention...but some do think that.
I suspect help is needed for interspecies mating in almost all cases, to ensure that the child is born free of any life-threatening conditions, and in some cases, to conceive at all.
I suspect help is needed for interspecies mating in almost all cases, to ensure that the child is born free of any life-threatening conditions, and in some cases, to conceive at all.
I agree with Timo, I'd say that the Progenitor DNA seeding was programmed into the worlds seeded so that one species of each selected world would end up developing into a form genetically and physically similar to that of the Progenitors. Thus even without prior gene-treatments the products of the seeding can interbreed.
This is truly incredibly and selective bio-engineering but since these guys were supposed to be uber-advanced I say we just run with it.
This is truly incredibly and selective bio-engineering but since these guys were supposed to be uber-advanced I say we just run with it.
I think the Progenitor's DNA was a bit less overwhelming.
That is, I don't think it was trying to force a species to become humanoid. As an example, Professor Galen found many pieces of the puzzle on worlds that had not evolved humanoid life forms at all.
What it did was to ensure that, if humanoid life evolved, it would fit a particular pattern.
Like, all mammals, reptiles, marsupials, amphibians, and monotremes on Earth have four primary limbs (though some may be atrophied, they show up in the skeleton). Not six, four.
Why should that be true on other worlds? (Progenitor DNA creating a predisposition towards four limbs.)
Most mammals (other critters too) have five digits on each limb. Horses, for example, walk on the end of one "finger", but looking at the skeleton, you can see that they had five, and the others atrophied. But why should this be true on other worlds? (Progenitor DNA again.)
So the Progenitors' DNA didn't force evolution down a path to create sentient bipeds, but it made development along that path far more likely. If a world produced sentient life, it most likely is carbon-based, and has four primary limbs and five digits on each limb.
That is, I don't think it was trying to force a species to become humanoid. As an example, Professor Galen found many pieces of the puzzle on worlds that had not evolved humanoid life forms at all.
What it did was to ensure that, if humanoid life evolved, it would fit a particular pattern.
Like, all mammals, reptiles, marsupials, amphibians, and monotremes on Earth have four primary limbs (though some may be atrophied, they show up in the skeleton). Not six, four.
Why should that be true on other worlds? (Progenitor DNA creating a predisposition towards four limbs.)
Most mammals (other critters too) have five digits on each limb. Horses, for example, walk on the end of one "finger", but looking at the skeleton, you can see that they had five, and the others atrophied. But why should this be true on other worlds? (Progenitor DNA again.)
So the Progenitors' DNA didn't force evolution down a path to create sentient bipeds, but it made development along that path far more likely. If a world produced sentient life, it most likely is carbon-based, and has four primary limbs and five digits on each limb.
There is such a thing as convergent evolution, on Earth, at least. Dolphins and sharks converge to the same shape, though one comes from a fish lineage, and one a mammal. Bats and birds solve the problems of flight much the same way. It is assumed in a lot of SF that convergent evolution will occur in other planets and that's why most aliens appear humanoid, cos it's a good shape, for running and cooling of the brain and picking things up and manipulating things. Though bats and birds can't interbreed.
That TNG episode was not going on that assumption, though.
It says on the 'Inside Star Trek' audiocassette, made in the 70s, that Spock was conceived in a testtube and returned to Amanda's womb and born naturally.
That TNG episode was not going on that assumption, though.
It says on the 'Inside Star Trek' audiocassette, made in the 70s, that Spock was conceived in a testtube and returned to Amanda's womb and born naturally.
I just went with medical technology and left it at that.
If you ask me McCoy was stubborn enough to live at least another thirty years, although I vaguely remember them killing him off in a comic book after Kelley died.
Not sure if it's canon or whatever.
If you ask me McCoy was stubborn enough to live at least another thirty years, although I vaguely remember them killing him off in a comic book after Kelley died.
Not sure if it's canon or whatever.
Well, Spock's also on his second body. It is possible that the katra-less Spock recovered from the Genesis Planet was older than the Spock who died saving the ship from Khan, giving the Spock Katra a home in a body older than the one it came from.
OF course, that doesn't explain why Spock doesn't seem much older 100 years later.
Thanks for the reminder. I had totally forgotten he was dead for a while and then aged fantastically fast in the new body. I do agree that would be enough to take the spring out of anybody's step. I guess he could be having similar issues as did Dolly the sheep.
Spock was conceived and genetically engineered in a Laboratory and then transferred to Amanda's womb.
He came out of her 'front bottom' naturally.
Species appear differently because of differences in their DNA. Some genetically similar species can interbreed (lions and tigers or horses and zebras or donkeys) but the cross breed is usually sterile.
If alien species appear differently it is because they are different on a genetic level. Chimps share 99.97% DNA as humans but we aren't genetically compatible. Something like iron v copper blood (or cobalt in the case of andorians & bolians) is a pretty fundamental difference as is betazoid telepathy. So I'm definitely not a fan of 'accidental' interbreeding without genetic manipulation being required.
If alien species appear differently it is because they are different on a genetic level. Chimps share 99.97% DNA as humans but we aren't genetically compatible. Something like iron v copper blood (or cobalt in the case of andorians & bolians) is a pretty fundamental difference as is betazoid telepathy. So I'm definitely not a fan of 'accidental' interbreeding without genetic manipulation being required.
Now, in some genuses the result is sterile...but not always. Some of the Felidae can actually interbreed and have fertile, healthy offspring. (Such as, for instance, the mating of the serval to the domestic house cat to create the Savannah breed.)
I've heard that a hypothetical cobalt porphyrin respiratory pigment would be pink when oxygenated and yellow when not. Andorians have the best representation of a copper respiratory pigment that I've seen, a proper bright blue when exposed to air.
Anywho, I've usually figured that they haven't sorted the issue of wear and tear on the brain in Trek, making radical life extension a non-starter even if the body can be kept alive and youthful indefinitely. It's just not plausible that genetic engineering and the like would remain illegal and people not avail themselves of thousand year life spans if they were in the offing.
I dunno--I was under the impression that the composition of Andorian blood was never stated.
I'm not sure about the pink thing anymore--it's actually pretty hard to find easily-readable/publicly available information about synthetic cobalt-based reversible oxygen-binders, and there are, of course, many types of cobalt porphyrin (for example Vitamin B12) and several types of cobalt porphyrin that have potential as a respiratory pigment. I've seen both pink and transparent for oxygenated cobalt complexes, which may just refer to the effect of oxygen binding on different compounds, and not be contradictory.
But I still haven't seen blue anywhere, and yellow, orange, and red are the colors usually associated with a deoxygenated state.
I'm not sure about the pink thing anymore--it's actually pretty hard to find easily-readable/publicly available information about synthetic cobalt-based reversible oxygen-binders, and there are, of course, many types of cobalt porphyrin (for example Vitamin B12) and several types of cobalt porphyrin that have potential as a respiratory pigment. I've seen both pink and transparent for oxygenated cobalt complexes, which may just refer to the effect of oxygen binding on different compounds, and not be contradictory.
But I still haven't seen blue anywhere, and yellow, orange, and red are the colors usually associated with a deoxygenated state.
Similar threads
