Human Error - The Most Depressing Episode of the Series

[teya]

The magical cure I was referring to was the implant that was impossible to remove in "Human Error" that all of a sudden was not a big deal in "Endgame".

Funny, about 10 years ago, there were no treatments for osteoporotic fractures of the vertebrae. Rods and plates didn't work in bones so fragile they broke at the slightest touch. Then some doctors had a lightbulb moment. What if we used angiography to guide a catheter into the vertebrae and injected cement into the bone to strengthen it? Lo and behold, it worked. Within months, patients who were bedridden were hopping off the treatment room table and walking again.

What had been impossible a few months before was now possible.

That's medicine.

This wasn't about medicine but rather about setting up a stumbling block for a character then removing said stumbling block with a magical resolution not for the sake of character development but for the sake of a bad script. Thus the tragedy of "Human Error" becomes rather pointless.

Within the confines of the story, it's absolutely about medicine.

And that's the only way I'll look at it, sorry. I really don't care what the writers *might have* planned. I don't care what I or any other fan might have wanted to see. All I care about is the story they gave me--is it plausible within the structure of the story as it had unfolded to that point.

And IMO, it is. There was no "magical cure" for Seven's implant anymore than vertebroplasty is a "magical cure."

But she's been living among humans for 4 years. That's time enough to start fitting in.

That's time to start making progress. When you consider that the average human spend their entire childhood and adolescence learning how to get along with other (heck, there are many adults who still haven't learned) then having Seven accomplish decades of emotional growth while wearing an implant to dampen her emotional response is absolutely ludicrous.

Thing is, she's obviously had extreme emotional responses over the course of the 4 years she's been on Voyager--grief, regret, anxiety, panic. If anything was a pulled-out-of-the-ass plotline, it was the emotional dampener in the first place--I've heard some fans justify the presence of the emotional dampener as something that came with Icheb's cortical node. Makes reasonable sense--his would be a newer version than Seven's.

And since everyone grows at different levels, since Seven does retain some memories of her time in UZ where she lived as an individual, her moving forward as human seems in keeping with her development to date.

So, still not buying it. You are passionate, but you do not persuade.

 

[kimc]

Within the confines of the story, it's absolutely about medicine.

And that's the only way I'll look at it, sorry. I really don't care what the writers *might have* planned. I don't care what I or any other fan might have wanted to see. All I care about is the story they gave me--is it plausible within the structure of the story as it had unfolded to that point.

And IMO, it is. There was no "magical cure" for Seven's implant anymore than vertebroplasty is a "magical cure."

Well I guess that makes sense if you view each episode as a separate, unrelated story. However, I view each episode as a chapter of the same story and viewed that way what was setup in "Human Error" was discarded in "Endgame" for no other reason then the "Endgame" script couldn't deal with it.

Thing is, she's obviously had extreme emotional responses over the course of the 4 years she's been on Voyager--grief, regret, anxiety, panic. If anything was a pulled-out-of-the-ass plotline, it was the emotional dampener in the first place--I've heard some fans justify the presence of the emotional dampener as something that came with Icheb's cortical node. Makes reasonable sense--his would be a newer version than Seven's.

Possibly but then wouldn't Seven have noticed that she felt different after the surgery? The episode game the impression that the emotional dampener was a separate device. After all, how else could the Doctor remove it when she needed the cortical node to survive?

And since everyone grows at different levels, since Seven does retain some memories of her time in UZ where she lived as an individual, her moving forward as human seems in keeping with her development to date.

Unimatrix Zero was not "living as an individual" - it was a shared fantasy world, a life of dreams. Yes, people grow at different levels and yes Seven made some progress but no one I don't care how wonderful can be assimilated at the age of six, spend eighteen years as a borg then be an emotional adult four years later. It just doesn't add up.

That's my opinion and it's not likely to change.

 

[teya]

Within the confines of the story, it's absolutely about medicine.

And that's the only way I'll look at it, sorry. I really don't care what the writers *might have* planned. I don't care what I or any other fan might have wanted to see. All I care about is the story they gave me--is it plausible within the structure of the story as it had unfolded to that point.

And IMO, it is. There was no "magical cure" for Seven's implant anymore than vertebroplasty is a "magical cure."

Well I guess that makes sense if you view each episode as a separate, unrelated story. However, I view each episode as a chapter of the same story and viewed that way what was setup in "Human Error" was discarded in "Endgame" for no other reason then the "Endgame" script couldn't deal with it.

No, I view it as part of a whole. The set-up in Human Error was dealt with by the doctor devising a different treatment--just as the doctors 10 years ago devised vertebroplasty.

It is only implausible if you believe that medical breakthroughs don't occur.

Thing is, she's obviously had extreme emotional responses over the course of the 4 years she's been on Voyager--grief, regret, anxiety, panic. If anything was a pulled-out-of-the-ass plotline, it was the emotional dampener in the first place--I've heard some fans justify the presence of the emotional dampener as something that came with Icheb's cortical node. Makes reasonable sense--his would be a newer version than Seven's.

Possibly but then wouldn't Seven have noticed that she felt different after the surgery? The episode game the impression that the emotional dampener was a separate device. After all, how else could the Doctor remove it when she needed the cortical node to survive?

The Doc said that it was a failsafe that was designed to shut down the cortical node. I took that to mean it was a component of the array. I could see your interpretation, though.

And since everyone grows at different levels, since Seven does retain some memories of her time in UZ where she lived as an individual, her moving forward as human seems in keeping with her development to date.

Unimatrix Zero was not "living as an individual" - it was a shared fantasy world, a life of dreams.

It was absolutely real to them.

Yes, people grow at different levels and yes Seven made some progress but no one I don't care how wonderful can be assimilated at the age of six, spend eighteen years as a borg then be an emotional adult four years later. It just doesn't add up.

That's my opinion and it's not likely to change.

Nor is mine. I base it on what was provided on screen and I found Seven's development plausible.

But then, I wasn't wedded to a specific plotline during the course of the show, so there was no reason to be disappointed in the outcome.

 

[kimc]

Nor is mine. I base it on what was provided on screen and I found Seven's development plausible.

Well we're going to have to agree to disagree then because based on what I saw and conversations with family who are psychologists and psychiatrists her characterization in the second half of Season 7 just doesn't add up for me.

 

[teya]

Nor is mine. I base it on what was provided on screen and I found Seven's development plausible.

Well we're going to have to agree to disagree then because based on what I saw and conversations with family who are psychologists and psychiatrists her characterization in the second half of Season 7 just doesn't add up for me.

And based on my 30 years in medicine working with researchers, I say the plotline is plausible.

So we have competing expertise to draw on.

 

[kimc]

Nor is mine. I base it on what was provided on screen and I found Seven's development plausible.

Well we're going to have to agree to disagree then because based on what I saw and conversations with family who are psychologists and psychiatrists her characterization in the second half of Season 7 just doesn't add up for me.

And based on my 30 years in medicine working with researchers, I say the plotline is plausible.

So we have competing expertise to draw on.

Well I know you're not a medical doctor or researcher but you've discussed Seven with your co-workers?

 

[teya]

Well we're going to have to agree to disagree then because based on what I saw and conversations with family who are psychologists and psychiatrists her characterization in the second half of Season 7 just doesn't add up for me.

And based on my 30 years in medicine working with researchers, I say the plotline is plausible.

So we have competing expertise to draw on.

Well I know you're not a medical doctor or researcher but you've discussed Seven with your co-workers?

Actually, I was the statistician for the procedure I mentioned above during the early trials. And if you knew anything about medicine you'd know that epidemiologists get trained at... hold your hat! medical schools. But no, I'm not posting my CV any more than I'd expect you to do so. I'm not certain why you see fit to challenge this. Do you think I'm someone you know or something? Would you care to share via PM?

Else, I find it *really* inappropriate for a moderator call a poster a liar. You do not know me, you don't know my background, so for you to claim I'm lying is really offensive.

 

[exodus]

And based on my 30 years in medicine working with researchers, I say the plotline is plausible.

So we have competing expertise to draw on.

Well I know you're not a medical doctor or researcher but you've discussed Seven with your co-workers?

Actually, I was the statistician for the procedure I mentioned above during the early trials. And if you knew anything about medicine you'd know that epidemiologists get trained at... hold your hat! medical schools. But no, I'm not posting my CV any more than I'd expect you to do so. I'm not certain why you see fit to challenge this. Do you think I'm someone you know or something? Would you care to share via PM?

Else, I find it *really* inappropriate for a moderator call a poster a liar. You do not know me, you don't know my background, so for you to claim I'm lying is really offensive.

I would have to agree.

Working side by side with those in the field would give one a better insight on things over someone that simply asks questions and isn't. For one, it would give someone information about things one might not think to ask as a question if they weren't in the field. Also the hands on info would trump any question as well. Asking & doing is as very different as theory and actual application.

 

[AuntKate]

Hmmmm. I think we're talking apples and oranges here. Yes, research can make great leaps and bounds, so it is quite possible that the doctor found a way to "reconfigure the microcircuitry" with a single process in the weeks that had passed since "Human Error." Such things happen in science all the time. However, what I find incredulous is the timing of it, the EMH's attitude about it, and the way it doesn't "fit" with my personal experiences with human psychology and development.

What strikes me is that the doctor's known about this process for awhile, yet hasn't told Seven about it. He says, "In anticipation of that [her desire to follow through on the procedure] I've been studying the problem in more detail." It's been on his mind enough for him to continue to do research, yet, when he finds a possible solution, he doesn't go to her with it, but just sits back and waits. That does not compute, IMHO. I'm not a researcher, but it seems to me that when someone finds a solution to a troubling issue, especially one that is troubling a person you love, that person hurries to tell them all about it. The second thing that is troubling to me in that Seven/EMH conversation is the doctor's assumption that she is still using the Chakotay hologram to explore her emotions: "You'll undoubtedly be running more simulations with the Chakotay hologram." We all know, from TNG, that doing something like this, using members of the crew on the holodeck, is a breech of protocol and a sign of holo-addiction. Seven's fixation on the program was every bit as dangerous as Barclay's was in TNG, because she neglected her duties. So, I think it is totally out of character for the doctor to encourage her to continue using the Chakotay hologram. The whole conversation is just lame, IMHO.

The problem with Seven's miraculous cure has nothing to do with science and everything to do with poor writing. The problem is that it is completely beside the point to the plot and a disservice to the complexity and depth of Seven's character. Whether she "progresses" in Season Seven is open to interpretation, of course, since none of us is practiced in dealing with the psychological challenges of a former drone. However, it simply does not compute that flipping a switch in her head (or heart or wherever) is going to make her suddenly ready to commit to a long-term relationship and solve all of the interpersonal problems she's experienced, even during season seven. Something that "easy" seems obviously contrived and makes the C/7 relationship seem contrived, as well.

IMHO, of course.

 

[kimc]

The second thing that is troubling to me in that Seven/EMH conversation is the doctor's assumption that she is still using the Chakotay hologram to explore her emotions: "You'll undoubtedly be running more simulations with the Chakotay hologram." We all know, from TNG, that doing something like this, using members of the crew on the holodeck, is a breech of protocol and a sign of holo-addiction. Seven's fixation on the program was every bit as dangerous as Barclay's was in TNG, because she neglected her duties. So, I think it is totally out of character for the doctor to encourage her to continue using the Chakotay hologram. The whole conversation is just lame, IMHO.

That's another thing that troubles me about this episode. As defined in TNG Seven's holo-addiction is a serious psychological problem. However, not only does the Doctor not seem to care enough to come to her with his device solution but she never receives treatment for her condition. Not only does she not receive treatment but the Doctor assumes she's going to continue!? Why not just hand out meth to a drug addict while you're at it?

 

[exodus]

The second thing that is troubling to me in that Seven/EMH conversation is the doctor's assumption that she is still using the Chakotay hologram to explore her emotions: "You'll undoubtedly be running more simulations with the Chakotay hologram." We all know, from TNG, that doing something like this, using members of the crew on the holodeck, is a breech of protocol and a sign of holo-addiction. Seven's fixation on the program was every bit as dangerous as Barclay's was in TNG, because she neglected her duties. So, I think it is totally out of character for the doctor to encourage her to continue using the Chakotay hologram. The whole conversation is just lame, IMHO.

That's another thing that troubles me about this episode. As defined in TNG Seven's holo-addiction is a serious psychological problem. However, not only does the Doctor not seem to care enough to come to her with his device solution but she never receives treatment for her condition. Not only does she not receive treatment but the Doctor assumes she's going to continue!? Why not just hand out meth to a drug addict while you're at it?

Seven is already emotionally scarred from being Borg all her life, she doesn't relate to other humans the way she should. Barclay has no such excuse, that's why getting lost in holodeck people instead of real ones is dangerous to him. With Seven is just the opposite, you want her to explore interaction with holograms first before actual real interaction with real people. That way she can explore her interest without feeling awkward or reclusive. PLus unlike Barclay, Seven was still emotionally & mentally aware they were holograms while Barclay blurred the lines of fantasy & reality.

 

[kimc]

Seven is already emotionally scarred from being Borg all her life, she doesn't relate to other humans the way she should.

This is true. However, it's one thing to have her practice on holograms of other crew members under the supervision of a Doctor vs creating her own unrealistic version of a crew member without his prior permission or the knowledge of her Doctor and then becoming so addicted to her creation that she prefers her fantasy life to her real life.

 

[exodus]

Seven is already emotionally scarred from being Borg all her life, she doesn't relate to other humans the way she should.

This is true. However, it's one thing to have her practice on holograms of other crew members under the supervision of a Doctor vs creating her own unrealistic version of a crew member without his prior permission or the knowledge of her Doctor and then becoming so addicted to her creation that she prefers her fantasy life to her real life.

Yes but tons of people feel shame and embarassment talking about the inner details of their intimate life, even to their Doctor. Imagine the embarrassment of having to inform someone who & where you're having sex with someone all the time. That's not normal either.

Seven is experancing romance and sexuality, we as teens(and some adults) are often overwhemed by these emotions. Many after their first intimate experance often get lost in the idea of doing it again & again. I think a great many people would rather stay home having sex than go to work. Seriously, Seven is dealing with feelings she should have years ago, so in a way as an adult she's emotionally making up for lost time. It takes everyone time to adjust to a sexual situation(s) when their new feelings.

 

[kimc]

^ Actually, that's part of my point. Most of us as adolescents start out with our first "crushes" which leads to the first date, the first kiss, etc. Who we like can change on a daily basis but then that's part of being a teenager. Eventually we continue to explore our sexuality - if we're lucky our first time is with someone we love and trust.

For someone as emotionally wounded as Seven to jump in with both feet is like playing with fire. To me it would have made more sense to have her date several people for a while. By this I don't mean sleep around but simply spend time with a variety of people on a one-on-one basis as she continues to explore. After all, that's what most of us got to do as adolescents.

 

[exodus]

^ Actually, that's part of my point. Most of us as adolescents start out with our first "crushes" which leads to the first date, the first kiss, etc. Who we like can change on a daily basis but then that's part of being a teenager. Eventually we continue to explore our sexuality - if we're lucky our first time is with someone we love and trust.

For someone as emotionally wounded as Seven to jump in with both feet is like playing with fire. To me it would have made more sense to have her date several people for a while. By this I don't mean sleep around but simply spend time with a variety of people on a one-on-one basis as she continues to explore. After all, that's what most of us got to do as adolescents.

Which would make her ready for a real sexual relationship by what, 60?

Seriously, we saw her attempt at such a thing in "Someone to Watch....." and she just wasn't ready. Doing that again with real people could further damage her self image I would think. It might cause her to become reclusive or angry toward other potential mates, especially if she most likely meets men with the same mind set as Tom Paris. They'd use her and be cruel. Seven's suffered enough in her life without dealing with the baggage relationship rejection/abuse. Using the holodeck would "temper" that experance.

 

[kimc]

Which would make her ready for a real sexual relationship by what, 60?

Seriously, we saw her attempt at such a thing in "Someone to Watch....." and she just wasn't ready. Doing that again with real people could further damage her self image I would think. It might cause her to become reclusive or angry toward other potential mates, especially if she most likely meets men with the same mind set as Tom Paris. They'd use her and be cruel. Seven's suffered enough in her life without dealing with the baggage relationship rejection/abuse. Using the holodeck would "temper" that experance.

You're applying modern standards to a time when people are supposed to be more sexually enlightened. The men in Voyager's time are not the players you're thinking of today. They don't need to be.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Tom Paris is the type of guy that would use a woman and be cruel to her either.

 

[exodus]

Which would make her ready for a real sexual relationship by what, 60?

Seriously, we saw her attempt at such a thing in "Someone to Watch....." and she just wasn't ready. Doing that again with real people could further damage her self image I would think. It might cause her to become reclusive or angry toward other potential mates, especially if she most likely meets men with the same mind set as Tom Paris. They'd use her and be cruel. Seven's suffered enough in her life without dealing with the baggage relationship rejection/abuse. Using the holodeck would "temper" that experance.

You're applying modern standards to a time when people are supposed to be more sexually enlightened. The men in Voyager's time are not the players you're thinking of today. They don't need to be.

Kirk?

Riker?

Bashir?

Tom?

Those guys are better players than most men are today. Is there any woman they didn't try an sleep with? They had no emotional investment in any of the women they "romanced" other than sexual conquest.

Seven heard Tom call her an unfeeling automaton which was cruel & did hurt her feelings.

 

[teya]

Seven is experancing romance and sexuality, we as teens(and some adults) are often overwhemed by these emotions.

*and some adults*

Yep. I've brought this up in the past, but maybe it's time to resurrect it.

I have a friend who was married in an arranged marriage when she was 18. She and her husband moved to the US and raised their family here. She was widowed at the age of 36. And then she had a choice. She could go back to India a widow and live with her family (very traditional) or she could choose to stay in the States and make her way as an American woman.

But that involved dating, because she didn't want to be alone.

Since her marriage had been arranged, she'd never dated. Never fallen in love with someone she chose for herself. She had no idea how to read signals, how to handle the first kiss, the first sexual encounter. So what did she do? She practiced. Alone in her living room, she practiced what to say, imagined how he would respond. She'd call her friends for advice.

Now, my friend was inexperienced with modern American courtship rituals. Does that make her a child? Should she date lots of people to get used to it before settling on someone?

As for the idea that people need to date around before settling down, well, that's like saying that people need to only settle down with people their own age. In other words, to each his or her own. I know people who married their high school sweethearts and it didn't work out (well, that would be me... ). I know people who married their high school sweethearts and it did work out--one of my classmates, married at 16 while we were still in school is still happily married to the guy.

Relationships aren't a cookie-cutter thing where everyone has to fit into a specific mold. They are what the people involved make them.

 

[kimc]

My parents married at 19 and 20 and are still in love now. However, they along with your widowed friend had the advantage of experiencing what it is like to be human for quite a number of years before engaging in a serious relationship.

 

[teya]

Relationships aren't a cookie-cutter thing where everyone has to fit into a specific mold. They are what the people involved make them.

Again, you've given me no proof that Seven isn't "human enough" to have a relationship. You've given me no proof that anyone marrying his or her first love is doomed to failure. You've given me no proof that a relationship between an older man and younger woman (or vice versa, for that matter) is wrong, other than that you find it "icky."

IDIC, yanno?