Now, I think some of you are way to hard on Eaves. I mean the basis for the design is pretty elegant, it just got over detailed. And blame him for other things, but it was not his decision to move the impulse engines in front of the nacelles. Blame the powers that be for that one.
He's the designer, he should have kicked TPTB in the nuts, might have helped to improve the writing as well...
As a (freelance) concept designer myself I can tell you right now it doesn't work that way, as much as I wish it would some days...
^^ I can imagine that it must suck when some suit with the technical knowledge of a amoeba tell you to change stuff just because it looks "cool"... Its good that I never had/will have jobs that will make me come into contact with people too much since I am bad at diplomacy and the like ...
This is true enough... There is NO QUESTION but that many of the defects of the E were not present in Eaves' original concepts. The problem is that the way he addressed the dictates he was given were sloppy. Put someone who (and yes, I know some of you are sick of hearing me say this, but deal with it!) think like an engineer onto the project, and when they say "well, we need to put the impulse engines here" will make the OTHER changes to the design necessitated by that... in other words, he'll make it work. Had I been given that dictate, I would have altered the nacelle placement and pylon design, as well as the impulse engine locations. I'd have ended up with three impulse engines... two on the saucer and one in the recess beneath the secondary hull hangar (aka the "fantail") and with the nacelles a bit further out, with the pylons angled slightly lower, so that the issue would be resolved (and so that you could argue that steering at impulse is done by altering output of each engine, not by vectoring thrust at all). The Beebs would probably never have noticed the extra changes he made, but the FANS would have. A Jeffries... a Probert... or a Cary Brown for that matter... wouldn't have gone ahead with the design until it made sense, and would have argued the point (in a non-insulting fashion) with Berman and his buddies, and would have convinced them that either the changes were a bad idea or that in order to implement them we HAD to make other changes... or else the fans would riot (which is basically what's happened). Berman may not be a "true Trek fan" and he may not be a technically-smart guy, but he's a GOOD BUSINESS MANAGER. He really got into trouble with Trek when he started thinking he was a CREATIVE type. Michael Pillar made TNG worth watching, not Rick Berman.
Doesn't the TNG Movie Sketchbook state that Eaves left the final design free of most details and left that to the blueprinters and modelmakers to add their own "signature" to the design?
It appears I'm in the minority that really loves the 1701-E. I just do not understand all the hate it gets. It is a PERFECT amalgamation of design cues from every major class of Federation starship in Starfleet history... - the sleek length and long warp nacelles of the Excelsior-Class - the warp pylons, black design on the nacelles, and clamshell shuttlebay of the 1701-A - the undersaucer triangles of the TOS 1701 - no neck section, ala Intrepid-Class - ovular saucer section, with many windows on top, ala Galaxy-Class John Eaves did all that intentionally, and he did a wonderful job. He made a sleek, yet elegant and beautiful ship. A true homage to the legacy of ships named Enterprise. And a worthy one as well. I even think the Intrepid-Class is a beautiful ship, even though I never cared much for VOY as a show, I felt that the ship's design still had merit. The same for the Sovvy. If there WERE one thing I would change, however, it would be the main deflector... I don't care for the look or the colors of it. I would give it a perfect duplicate of the deflector Voyager has, only circular. That look and those colors would work better on the Sovvy. EDIT: Come to think of it, the Galaxy-Class 1701-D was the ONLY Enterprise (save the NX-01) that did NOT have a clamshell shuttlebay on the aft secondary hull, so actually, the E adheres more to Starfleet tradition, in that regard.
Don't misread CRITICISM for HATE. I like all of the things about the design which you mentioned. Hence, those are among the things I didn't mention. It needs TWEAKING, not wholesale revision... and the tweaking would be far less dramatic than it seems that the 1701 is getting for this new movie...
I'm so mad right now. I drew up a revision of the Sovereign that kept the basic shape while incorporating some of the design cues from Probert's D (and a bit of Eaves' original concept, which derived heavily from Andy's stuff.) I was quite proud of it. But, I have to now find the half erased copy because the Digital copy that I cleaned up is currently awating a data restoration on my backup drive.
Why, thankyou. This is primarily an aesthetic choice on my part - I'm not a fan of how the design evolution from previous classes which ended with the Ent-D has now been suddenly reversed (in many ways). I also prefer how it makes the vessel more compact-looking - and if you look at some of the concepts shown after we posted, these are more in line with what I'd have imagined. Having the nacelles outboard of the saucer also lends a nod towards the Intrepid-class. Unfortunately I can't say I personally like the Vega, as while it may be technologically sound (bearing in mind this can only be done with today's understanding of physics and engineering), it looks somewhat ungainly - some elements appear out of proportion. Well again, this was partly from my sense of aesthetics. They're glaringly obvious as a homage to the 1701, and I'm sure something better could have been done with the space - maybe extra sensor pallets etc. Exactly: Much better! Lol! I guess my PoV regarding the collectors (again, primarily aesthetic) is that they're sucking matter in - akin to a black hole. I'm not suggesting that they're powerful enough to prevent light escaping, but I'd expect them to be pretty dark unless operating at relativistic speeds. Furthermore, I'd have them glow at the natural spectrum of hydrogen - IIRC, this was what the Bussards drew in primarily... Whatever, I'm tired of xmas tree lights. This is applying current understanding of physics to a concept far in the distant future though - where I think we'd be rather naive to assume that new discoveries that alter our understanding of these disciplines would not be made. Also, IIRC they're often labelled "Warp Field Grills" which implies they're directly related to the warp field itself, rather than to do with radiating heat. Having said that, if we were to apply your rationale, I do think they ought to remain dark altogether during Impulse - and then show a brief, almost imperceptible shift through a dull amber up to incandescent blue as the transition to warp is made. Not at all - I much prefer Movie-era and TOS. But, the idea that a Primary Hull of that size would also need a large shuttlebay aft is sound thinking - for both ease of cargo and personnel transfer throughout the ship (especially during those large evac movements) but also because it will likely need one when operating independantly of the Engineering Hull. I don't hold to the idea that it stretches towards the core of the saucer section though, if that's what you mean. Once again: Personal aesthetics. Whilst I don't want a design that is marred by ridiculous treknobabbly explanations for poorly-thought out elements, I also don't want something that looks like a pile of ass. Not to mention, we have a precedent in previous classes. Again though, to restrict these designs to what is supported by today's (limited) understanding of the universe is very naive. Who is to say that over the next few centuries there won't be new discoveries that force us to redefine how we approach the technical sciences? Think back to the "flat earth society" or how a century ago nobody believed man would fly. Starships have technologies that can "beam" people from one place to another. Does today's understanding of physics allow for this? Not particularly! I do agree with you on that - I loved that effect in TMP, and was sorely irritated that it was dropped in later movies out of sheer laziness. I think you misunderstand me, probably because I just skipped over the point on the deflector rather than going into detail. I'd prefer a similar glow for the deflector to that of the nacelles, ie, incandescent blue, simply because they're both similarly high-output sources of energy. In fact, I expect that the dish would glow even brighter at higher warp speeds. If I had my way entirely, the only difference would be the impulse engines, which would be amber as per TMP et al. See my above comments on the precedent for it.. etc etc yadda yadda yadda It's not glaringly bad except for those silly "graphic design" elements like the dark panels and the (again) stepping. And the curved windows: WTF was Eaves thinking? Was he even thinking? Or smoking some of the good stuff?? When I did the mockup of it I'm fairly sure I recall leaving enough for clearance - remember I lowered the nacelles significantly, so that they were well away from the general thrust of the Impulse exhausts. Not at all. As I described above, I'm much more comfortable with TMP-era. However, that does not mean I'm simply going to throw away everything that has come since out of the proverbial window! And putting clamshell doors is, visually speaking, an evolutionary backstep. That's not to say I don't like them, but I think in a post-TNG context they don't belong so much anymore. There are very few things that "work" when Eaves has had a hand in them, IMO... Wait, I'm not Hellsgate! Who said anything about fighters!? As far as it being a shuttlecarrier though, I'm fairly comfortable with the idea of taking the Ent-E in a new direction - just as the Ent-D had new capabilities over the 1701. I should also point out that I'd have increased the Ent-E in mass and dimensions to be at least equivalent to the Ent-C if not the Ent-D herself. Why? Because it just seems weird to put Picard in charge of a dinky little ship. Well, that's not quite what I had in mind - those windows look fairly standard in height, whereas I was thinking something more along the lines of possibly two decks tall. Probably for the same reasons that you did - it's a nice homage to the TMP refit! I agree entirely on your points, but since the arboretum windows were included on both the TMP and TNG (and possibly other) Enterprises, I see no reason not to here. I never claimed that they were needed. I simply included them as a personal preference, and based on precedent. I'm thinking more as point-defence emplacements against torpedoes, etc. Definitely not as "uber cannons" like the E-D dreadnought had though. That makes little sense - if we look back to TMP and TNG all emplacements were similarly marked (ignoring production rush-jobs like the Ent-C!). Why simply stop using these markings for certain RCS ports now? Um thanks, I think. I must point out I'd completely forgotten about the Escape Pods though... bloody annoying, "kewl" shaped wastes of space that had to land upside-down and could never hope to interlock with the pods from other vessels (think Wolf 359) - or each other! What a joke...
One of the pre-movie publicity hype comments ahead of the "First Contact" feature that struck me was from either Rick Sternbach or Ronald D. Moore, IIRC. One of these gentlemen said that he was pleased to see the new Enterprise shaping up to return to the lines of the original. This struck me as odd, considering that the E-E Sovereign seemed to borrow quite heavily from the Excelsior; in fact, I thought it looked like the best version of the Excelsior (including the E-B) to this day. I think either Sternbach or Okuda said something about the design eliminating the thin neck of the E-D, thereby omitting one of the perceived vulnerabilities to attack. I have mixed feelings about this. I think some design cues from the original would do some good for the E-E, though I doubt anyone in the studio would ever take my suggestions seriously. Here are some ideas: 1: Return to smoother, TOS-style exterior. A smoother, monochrome hull would look great. TOS-remastered has proven that. Get rid of the STAR WARS-style surface detailing. This would also allow for some minor experimentation with the ship's shape. 2: Bring back the glowing domes for the saucer. Another great TOS feature. 3: Bring back some E-D lines to the E-E; try altering the saucer shape so it is wider. 4: Try a different shape for the warp nacelles. The E-E's nacelles don't look like Federation engines anymore. Try bringing design lines from the E-D's nacelles, plus the armored feel from the engines of Sisko's Defiant. The illuminated plasma vents along the sides of the nacelles should be louvered with ablative armor for protection against incoming fire. 5: Tone down the way the neck blends into the saucer. It's a little too radical. Try making it a little longer and thinner so the lower saucer looks distinct. 6: Maybe it's just me, but I think the secondary hull torpedo bays would look better and probably work better logistically if they were built into the base of the warp pylons, fore and aft. The pylons look okay, but could stand a little beefing up anyway. 7: The interior sets need a drastic redesign. Eliminate any hint of Voyager. Bring back a touch of TOS and TNG. FWIW, I thought Captain Styles' chair in TMP3 was a neat design, only needing a little refinement.
Ummm... maybe I'm missing something here, but just what, exactly, was worthy of this ATTACK? (I've always hated the "quoted for truth" thing, too... if you don't have anything to add, as far as I'm concerned, "QTF" is simply spamming, really.) I've seen the Legacy-class... it's a damned nice looking ship. Referring to it is no better or worse than, say, referring to one of Vektor's designs. And the "Arrow"... isn't that the Voyager's "yacht?" Granted, the poster didn't post pictures... so what? His description was pretty detailed... even if you don't know what some of these things are, you get a fairly detailed mental image, I think. Is there some PERSONAL "bad blood" here? Because I saw a perfectly reasonable response to the original posted question, and I saw the poster get flamed over it. What am I missing, exactly?
Actually, quoting a flaming post "for truth" is no less than posting it originally - warnings for flaming to both USS Mariner and blaXXer.
Probably the fact that Hellsgate has been a prolific poster of his personal fanboyish "concepts" for quite some time, not only here but on SciFi-Meshes also. He has a nasty habit of trying to imprint his own over-powered, uber-ship specs and backstories for designs that other people have had the generosity to display on such boards, often simply dumping them in the thread without so much as a by-your-leave. I hope for his own sake that he's given up the particularly rude and ignorant habit of posting said works on his various RPG and fanfic web pages without permission though - that really takes the cake. And he often removed the original image credits... You may have also noticed how he kitbashed some of Vance's images over in his thread without permission? Granted he has now rescinded said images, but it's the lack of thought that counts... So all in all, I'd say that this is another example of the (insert derogatory term for people who spend far too much time on RPGs and designing uber-god-ships crewed by transforming pokemon) causing other posters to snap in exasperation. To be honest, I agree with Blaxxer's sentiment - though not the method in which it was expressed. (Un)fortunately Hellsgate's post in this thread was I thought relatively legit (and mild) compared to usual...
Ah, got it. I can understand the exasperation, if all that is true. Still, there's the other side of the coin to consider. And that's that Hellsgate's post, in this particular case (as you said yourself!) was legit and mild. I haven't seen the rest of the stuff, so I can't comment on that... but I've found that it's always a good idea to judge individual behavior based on what the person is doing NOW, not what they may have done in the past. The example I like to give is a girl I used to know. Once... JUST ONCE... I got unjustifiably mad at her and yelled without any reason. To be blunt, I was a jerk towards her, that one time. The thing is, from that point forward, no matter how "appropriate" my behavior was in any circumstance, she'd judge my behavior based upon what I had done that one time, long before. Yes, I'd been wrong that time, but that wasn't the case in all the later events where she kept punishing me, over and over, for that one thing. I'd been wrong, but it didn't matter HOW MUCH DIFFERENTLY I BEHAVED FROM THAT POINT FORWARD. I was guilty, forever and ever amen, and nothing I said or did could ever change that. In other words, one moment of "jerkiness" on my part led to the entire rest of the relationship (which I ended pretty quickly) of her being jerkish towards ME. At least I'd admitted that I was wrong... but she really seemed to think that she was JUSTIFIED in being a consummate be-atch towards me from that point forward. In the end, I think she was a far worse person than I was, as a result of that. The moral of that little story? Judge people on what they're doing at the time. If someone's a jerk 99% of the time, but happen to NOT be a jerk at a particular moment... REWARD the non-jerky behavior by being nice in return! If you punish the good behavior along with the bad... there's not really much incentive towards behaving well, is there? [PREACH MODE: OFF]
Oh, I agree entirely; I was just clarifying the situation - it appears that Hellsgate's latest post was simply the straw that irreparably damaged this particular quadroped's spinal tissue... (Why isn't there an android emoticon when you need one?) Nevertheless, neither of us are mods (fortunately for the RPG fanboys! ) and I'm sure this thread has better uses than for us to discuss a situation that Ptrope has kindly halted. Now, somewhat related to the original post: Does anyone remember what they expected/hoped the Ent-E to look like, before we started to see the very first bit of concept art, etc? I'm certainly curious to see how everyone's personal ideas were affected by what we eventually got...
I hoped to see more a cross between the TMP Enterprise and the Ent D, less compact then the Ent D but sturdy looking, more balanced in terms of primary/secundary hull sizes, sleeker nacelles then the D had but with all the good bits of the D in there like the single impulse engine in about the right spot, a decent neck, and the colour a little more like the TMP refit and the same way of detailing the hull, aka no bumpy lumpy greebles.