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How would the world react to proof of life/no life after death?

If one were subsumed into some sort of universal consciousness outside of space and time, I guess it could have access to every sentient being's memories in every possible cosmos and perhaps be able experience every aspect of reality through them. Perhaps like some sort of ultimate trainspotter in Hilbert/Fock/WTF space -- some sort of ultimate pantheistic solipsistic entity.

This reminds me of a thread I made when I first returned to the trekbbs based on this desire I have always had. The idea to know what it's like to be every human being ever by being them yet also being able to still be me to sort of process that experience as me as well. Memories aren't enough though. Memories without emotional context just isn't the same. TO understand someone you need to know what they feel behind those thoughts. How all the feelings and memories that came before led up to that feeling/though.


Jason
 
I don't like being me very much and I likely won't be missed so my nonexistence is really not a problem. Suicide has never seemed a viable option though there are those pod things available in Switzerland, where they use nitrogen to induce death by hypoxia. I don't feel ill enough to choose that option -- yet.

I wouldn't want to experience being someone else. I guess I lack the neurotransmitters that stimulate joy, pleasure etc. -- much like happened to Carrie Fisher, which she blamed on too much cocaine and other drug usage, although she was also bipolar I understand. I've never been an habitual drug user of any sort nor am I bipolar so I guess it's just down to having bad genes.
 
I don't like being me very much and I likely won't be missed so my nonexistence is really not a problem. Suicide has never seemed a viable option though there are those pod things available in Switzerland, where they use nitrogen to induce death by hypoxia. I don't feel ill enough to choose that option -- yet.

I wouldn't want to experience being someone else. I guess I lack the neurotransmitters that stimulate joy, pleasure etc. -- much like happened to Carrie Fisher, which she blamed on too much cocaine and other drug usage, although she was also bipolar I understand. I've never been an habitual drug user of any sort nor am I bipolar so I guess it's just down to having bad genes.

I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself. I'm not found of myself either to be honest. To much doubt and human insecurity about my weight and being shy and also being at the age were being alone is seen as weird to others and you know you kind of missed out on things in life that others were able to have such as a family or even romantic love.

Jason
 
Yeah, I'm not looking for sympathy. To me, life seems like it offers the greatest rewards to the most delusional amongst us, who actually believe and buy into the lies. I suspect that requires some degree of addictive personality that gets off on neurotransmitter feedback.

I have little nostalgia for the remembrance of things past so I don't feel that I need to revisit them. New experiences can be somewhat stimulating but my current physical condition offers me little scope other than intellectual pursuits. Activities such as bungee jumping or sky diving would never have appealed to me. I'm not an adrenaline junkie.

Travel would be too uncomfortable and too expensive in terms of the insurance costs.
 
There are things that happen in the world that can't be reconciled with the idea of a "loving god". Like for instance that the most likely death for a lion cub is to be killed by their own father. And the reason the lion does that is to have sex with the lioness. The Lioness refuses to have sex as long as she has cubs to take care of but quickly gets over it when they are killed, even if it's by the male!!! Lions have been doing that for millions of years, long before the first hominid appeared. And that's only ONE example among millions. Nature is NOT a Disney cartoon!
 
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Jaws 1, 2 & 3!

Now I'm half expecting to hear that Graham Chapman isn't dead after all like the Duchess of Kent, Bill Beaumont and about 40 people at Flixborough in 1974. Always look on the bright side of life!
 
People would be twice as scared of dying because they'd know oblivion awaits.

Speaking from personal experience and desires, I'm pretty certain that suicides and murders would increase greatly. Too many people fear what will happen in their afterlife that prevents them from committing acts that might negatively affect that afterlife based on what they've been conditioned to believe.

No afterlife, no eternal suffering/punishment.

You are probably right about the oblivion issue. If I were at deaths door I would likely feel different about it. But at the moment I find it interesting to contemplate different viewpoints on a philosophical level. I didn’t quote your post because I disagreed with you, I mainly found it interesting to talk about. In my experience there are seldom a right or wrong way to see things in this kind of discussion. There are only different viewpoints and opinions. Your viewpoint is equally valid as mine. And a viewpoint can change depending on the situation one find oneself in. :)

Like you, I feel I am much closer to death than most people here that I'm aware of.

My dad died this year. It will be six months on Tuesday evening. I wish beyond wishes that I could believe that I'll see my dad again someday. That he's looking down on us, whether approvingly or, as was his way, critically.

I just cannot believe it. Nothing in my brain allows me to believe that the concept of a deity or afterlife exists, especially given the conditions so many people and animals live under. And while my outward existence may appear to be pretty damned comfy, internally there is complete chaos and living damnation. My dad is dead. He is gone forever.

As for a person living on somewhere in the universe in their basic materials and atoms, true, you (your consciousness) may no longer exist, but you have given your atoms, which were temporarily yours to do with as you pleased, back to the universe for it to do with as it pleases (non-spiritually and non-consciously). You (your building blocks) still exist until this universe ceases to exist, whether as matter or energy.

Yeah, I'm not looking for sympathy. To me, life seems like it offers the greatest rewards to the most delusional amongst us, who actually believe and buy into the lies. I suspect that requires some degree of addictive personality that gets off on neurotransmitter feedback.

I have little nostalgia for the remembrance of things past so I don't feel that I need to revisit them. New experiences can be somewhat stimulating but my current physical condition offers me little scope other than intellectual pursuits. Activities such as bungee jumping or sky diving would never have appealed to me. I'm not an adrenaline junkie.

Travel would be too uncomfortable and too expensive in terms of the insurance costs.

I am right. With. You. There.

It comes back to the old saying: Ignorance is bliss. To me, it seems the people that are the happiest are the ones that have almost completely or completely given all of their decisions to some deity in their minds. Those that live to please a higher being instead of living this life to its fullest and experiencing everything they can and learning everything they can and, hopefully, passing that knowledge on to those that will survive after the first person is gone.

As with you, I cannot remember most of my past experiences. My dad had most of the answers about younger me that I have and I honestly thought I would have more time to talk to him about it. My mom hasn't paid much attention to my life for, well, decades. The less she knows, the happier she is. She'll tell me she remembers feelings but not details when I ask her specifics about events we both shared. She'll then go on to describe, in detail, events that involved her and my dad or she and my brother. I love her dearly, but I do wish she had more answers for me and yes, I do feel pretty damn resentful about it.

Such is life.

Going back to the first statement I quoted: I do not fear oblivion in any way, shape, or form. In fact, I welcome it. But as the other saying mentions, people are more afraid of dying than being dead. I'm afraid of even more suffering and it all ending on the lowest of low notes. If there a way for me to painlessly fall asleep and never wake up, I would choose that option tonight. I really do imagine oblivion as a dreamless sleep state. I would not know that I'm dead. I would not know anything. I would no longer think nor feel anything. I just wouldn't be, exactly as I was before the spring of 1973.

With all of that said, if I were presented proof of an afterlife that I felt was valid (after all, truth and facts seem to be subjective now (flat-Earthers, climate-deniers, the list goes on)), then, of course, I would not deny it. Unfortunately, the only proof I think I could truly accept would be to have died and been face-to-face with said afterlife. Yeah, how would I go denying it, then? So, in that way, I believe all atheists are agnostic; you're faced with absolute proof after you've died, what more is there to deny?

Thank you for this thread. I hope I was able to explain my feelings logically so that they could be understood without seeming too needy or whiny.
 
As for a person living on somewhere in the universe in their basic materials and atoms, true, you (your consciousness) may no longer exist, but you have given your atoms, which were temporarily yours to do with as you pleased, back to the universe for it to do with as it pleases (non-spiritually and non-consciously). You (your building blocks) still exist until this universe ceases to exist, whether as matter or energy.
You explain it better that I could, this is exactly how I see it. :)

I really do imagine oblivion as a dreamless sleep state. I would not know that I'm dead. I would not know anything. I would no longer think nor feel anything. I just wouldn't be, exactly as I was before the spring of 1973.
This is how I see oblivion too.
 
When I see people make all kinds of gestures when they talk about something bad or whatever, it really looks like religion is sometimes little more than an OCD.
 
I’m sorry to hear so many people with depression issues. I have multiple family members with the same problems. I feel lucky to not have those problems myself. Maybe my stubbornness and refusal to take any mind altering meds when I was a lonely awkward near friendless teenager forced my brain to learn to chemically balance itself.

I do think to some extent you make your own luck. Most of the things you try in life you will fail. But if you try 100 things odds are you succeed once.

I don’t think knowledge necessarily implies misery. There’s good things going on in the world, just they don’t make headlines. Knowledge makes it easier to be miserable for a person with enough anxiety to greater notice and focus on negatives. But there are positive statistical trends you can point to to show it’s not all bad.
 
Allow me to input with my own two cents:
According to my own religious belief; there is an afterlife of sorts for the soul, but its beyond mortal comprehension. The easiest way to explain it I think would be to use the principle of the ascended beings from the Stargate franchise; although that's an extremely limited analogy.
Each soul "exists" and is born into a human body, lives, dies and the soul departs the body and returns ('ascended") to the "afterlife." According to some opinions, each soul only lives once and then returns to "Heaven" or "Paradise" or whatever you want to call it; is judged by God for your actions done during life, and possibly sentenced to "Purgatory" for atonement, and after which the soul gets to return to spiritual bliss.
Alternatively, the soul has the opportunity (or sentence) to be "reborn" as a new person; not quite reincarnation but a whole new being.
Considering that, objectively, once someone is dead and their soul leaves the body (if you believe in such) it is impossible for that person to become alive again and tell us what happened "beyond"; there is absolutely no way of ascertaining scientifically whether or not this is true, it's entirely up to the individuals own faith.

Not discounting all the "near death experience" stories that have been published over the ages, but if you were able to become alive again you were never actually dead. You were just resting.
 
Now for all you folk who embrace the great oblivion, @Tinsel and @Asbo Zaprudder; I offer you my sincerest best wishes. Being in a place where you think you may even be happier off dead, well I can't really understand it, perhaps it's a depression thing or maybe just a personality thing, or maybe a result of walking around with a body that just doesn't work right anymore, I don't know, but I can try to understand it.

I read a story this morning, a couple months ago a guy was riding the subway and noticed someone walk through the end doors and stand in between the train cars. The man looked like he was crying, despite it pouring rain. The other guy ran over to the doors, pulled him in and gave him a seat. Maybe he was going through a rough time, or just woke up that morning feeling like he had to end it. But a random subway commuter felt that some total strangers life deserved saving and stuck his arm out to reel him in.

If you find what you are looking for and decide to bow out; well, good luck to you. But I sure as hell can offer you my (virtual) arm if you decide you want to be reeled back in.
 
I appreciate your sentiment. :)

I thought this was an interesting story and concept and follows along the lines of what my mom believes:

The Egg

By: Andy Weir


You were on your way home when you died.

It was a car accident. Nothing particularly remarkable, but fatal nonetheless. You left behind a wife and two children. It was a painless death. The EMTs tried their best to save you, but to no avail. Your body was so utterly shattered you were better off, trust me.

And that’s when you met me.

“What… what happened?” You asked. “Where am I?”

“You died,” I said, matter-of-factly. No point in mincing words.

“There was a… a truck and it was skidding…”

“Yup,” I said.

“I… I died?”

“Yup. But don’t feel bad about it. Everyone dies,” I said.

You looked around. There was nothingness. Just you and me. “What is this place?” You asked. “Is this the afterlife?”

“More or less,” I said.

“Are you god?” You asked.

“Yup,” I replied. “I’m God.”

“My kids… my wife,” you said.

“What about them?”

“Will they be all right?”

“That’s what I like to see,” I said. “You just died and your main concern is for your family. That’s good stuff right there.”

You looked at me with fascination. To you, I didn’t look like God. I just looked like some man. Or possibly a woman. Some vague authority figure, maybe. More of a grammar school teacher than the almighty.

“Don’t worry,” I said. “They’ll be fine. Your kids will remember you as perfect in every way. They didn’t have time to grow contempt for you. Your wife will cry on the outside, but will be secretly relieved. To be fair, your marriage was falling apart. If it’s any consolation, she’ll feel very guilty for feeling relieved.”

“Oh,” you said. “So what happens now? Do I go to heaven or hell or something?”

“Neither,” I said. “You’ll be reincarnated.”

“Ah,” you said. “So the Hindus were right,”

“All religions are right in their own way,” I said. “Walk with me.”

You followed along as we strode through the void. “Where are we going?”

“Nowhere in particular,” I said. “It’s just nice to walk while we talk.”

“So what’s the point, then?” You asked. “When I get reborn, I’ll just be a blank slate, right? A baby. So all my experiences and everything I did in this life won’t matter.”

“Not so!” I said. “You have within you all the knowledge and experiences of all your past lives. You just don’t remember them right now.”

I stopped walking and took you by the shoulders. “Your soul is more magnificent, beautiful, and gigantic than you can possibly imagine. A human mind can only contain a tiny fraction of what you are. It’s like sticking your finger in a glass of water to see if it’s hot or cold. You put a tiny part of yourself into the vessel, and when you bring it back out, you’ve gained all the experiences it had.

“You’ve been in a human for the last 48 years, so you haven’t stretched out yet and felt the rest of your immense consciousness. If we hung out here for long enough, you’d start remembering everything. But there’s no point to doing that between each life.”

“How many times have I been reincarnated, then?”

“Oh lots. Lots and lots. An in to lots of different lives.” I said. “This time around, you’ll be a Chinese peasant girl in 540 AD.”

“Wait, what?” You stammered. “You’re sending me back in time?”

“Well, I guess technically. Time, as you know it, only exists in your universe. Things are different where I come from.”

“Where you come from?” You said.

“Oh sure,” I explained “I come from somewhere. Somewhere else. And there are others like me. I know you’ll want to know what it’s like there, but honestly you wouldn’t understand.”

“Oh,” you said, a little let down. “But wait. If I get reincarnated to other places in time, I could have interacted with myself at some point.”

“Sure. Happens all the time. And with both lives only aware of their own lifespan you don’t even know it’s happening.”

“So what’s the point of it all?”

“Seriously?” I asked. “Seriously? You’re asking me for the meaning of life? Isn’t that a little stereotypical?”

“Well it’s a reasonable question,” you persisted.

I looked you in the eye. “The meaning of life, the reason I made this whole universe, is for you to mature.”

“You mean mankind? You want us to mature?”

“No, just you. I made this whole universe for you. With each new life you grow and mature and become a larger and greater intellect.”

“Just me? What about everyone else?”

“There is no one else,” I said. “In this universe, there’s just you and me.”

You stared blankly at me. “But all the people on earth…”

“All you. Different incarnations of you.”

“Wait. I’m everyone!?”

“Now you’re getting it,” I said, with a congratulatory slap on the back.

“I’m every human being who ever lived?”

“Or who will ever live, yes.”

“I’m Abraham Lincoln?”

“And you’re John Wilkes Booth, too,” I added.

“I’m Hitler?” You said, appalled.

“And you’re the millions he killed.”

“I’m Jesus?”

“And you’re everyone who followed him.”

You fell silent.

“Every time you victimized someone,” I said, “you were victimizing yourself. Every act of kindness you’ve done, you’ve done to yourself. Every happy and sad moment ever experienced by any human was, or will be, experienced by you.”

You thought for a long time.

“Why?” You asked me. “Why do all this?”

“Because someday, you will become like me. Because that’s what you are. You’re one of my kind. You’re my child.”

“Whoa,” you said, incredulous. “You mean I’m a god?”

“No. Not yet. You’re a fetus. You’re still growing. Once you’ve lived every human life throughout all time, you will have grown enough to be born.”

“So the whole universe,” you said, “it’s just…”

“An egg.” I answered. “Now it’s time for you to move on to your next life.”

And I sent you on your way.
 
Now for all you folk who embrace the great oblivion, @Tinsel and @Asbo Zaprudder; I offer you my sincerest best wishes. Being in a place where you think you may even be happier off dead, well I can't really understand it, perhaps it's a depression thing or maybe just a personality thing, or maybe a result of walking around with a body that just doesn't work right anymore, I don't know, but I can try to understand it.

I read a story this morning, a couple months ago a guy was riding the subway and noticed someone walk through the end doors and stand in between the train cars. The man looked like he was crying, despite it pouring rain. The other guy ran over to the doors, pulled him in and gave him a seat. Maybe he was going through a rough time, or just woke up that morning feeling like he had to end it. But a random subway commuter felt that some total strangers life deserved saving and stuck his arm out to reel him in.

If you find what you are looking for and decide to bow out; well, good luck to you. But I sure as hell can offer you my (virtual) arm if you decide you want to be reeled back in.
I think I'd be better off dead because I am ill and often in pain, mostly due to medical procedures to keep me alive. There is no cure for my illness and any further medical intervention might only make my condition worse. Until one finds oneself in this condition, it is hard to imagine a fate worse than death but it exists. This is hardly a life.
 
I think I'd be better off dead because I am ill and often in pain, mostly due to medical procedures to keep me alive. There is no cure for my illness and any further medical intervention might only make my condition worse. Until one finds oneself in this condition, it is hard to imagine a fate worse than death but it exists. This is hardly a life.

We can get used to physical pain, up to a point, it's mental pain that you can't get used to.
 
The fact is everyone is different and every pain is different, whether physical or mental.

You're right. I was trying to generalize but some people disagree with that. I know people that are so afraid of pain that they never to the dentist until they are really aching badly!! It's a paradox of sorts.
 
We can get used to physical pain, up to a point, it's mental pain that you can't get used to.
Do you think everybody should be like you? Do you get off on inflicting mental pain on others by denying their feelings and experiences? You certainly appear to have little empathy for the suffering of others.
 
Do you think everybody should be like you? Do you get off on inflicting mental pain on others by denying their feelings and experiences? You certainly appear to have little empathy for the suffering of others.

I'll show empathy by pretending you didn't say these insulting and gratuitous things to me. Next time I'll report you, be sure of that!
 
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