How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9?

[Cepstrum]

Hello, fellow DS9 fans.

I have a question for you.

One of my favorite things about DS9 is the serialized story telling, which culminated both in season six's six-part arc and season seven's ten-part arc.

How would it affect your view of DS9 if those two arcs were removed and instead were replaced with more stand-alone stories, sort of like the first few seasons? And if the Dominion war were reduced, to say, a two or three parter at the end kind of like the Circle trilogy)?

I like most of the DS9 episodes, but without those two arcs and the buildups to them, I'd say I wouldn't find DS9 quite as thrilling. Would you?

(Disclaimer: I'm not a "true" Niner, for I like TNG and *gasp* VOY just as much)

 

[RegFan]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

I think I would actually prefer that version of DS9, because I never liked the Dominion War in the first place (I'm not entirely sure why). But if the Dominion War was replaced by a different arc instead of some standalone episodes, the series would be better than both the original and this version.

 

[Praxius]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

I like how it all worked together... the style in which the series was laid out gave it a bit more uniqueness from the other shows. The continued multi-episode stories was what my wife liked so much about DS9 compared to TNG or Voyager..... however at the same time, the downfall for this multi-episode layout is that you can't easily jump into the middle of the story and know what's all going on, where in TNG and Voyager, you don't necessarily have to see the previous episode in order to know what's all going on in the current episode (Most times)

Also, while I am still a big fan of the TNG series, this continual multi-episode story telling in DS9 also helped (in my opinion) with better character development and background then with the other ST seriesez. Rather then having random stories trying to explain tid bits of each character's background in a fragmented manner, having muti-episode story-telling helps with a linear, more detailed development of the characters.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

You can't take out the Dominion, or limit their arc to only a few episodes. That's what made DS9 really exciting. TNG had the Borg as their really cool villian, and DS9 had the Dominion, which is what made both series so good. They had genuinely scary villians that hung around for an extended period of time. TOS and VOY both tended to have alien-of-the-week bad guys. Occasionally, villians would return - the Klingons with TOS (and maybe the Romulans?) and of course, VOY had the Kazon for a while and then ended with the Borg, but it just wasn't the same. I love how the Dominion just started off with some throwaway lines about them being a power in the Gamma Quardrant, and by the end of season 2 we get the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta, and in season 3 we get the big twist of the Founders of this "evil empire" being Odo's people. Good stuff!

 

[Marie1]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

Which two arcs?

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

Which two arcs?

The six-episode arc that began season six, and the 9-episode (10-hour) episode arc that concluded season seven.

 

[Damask]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

I dont think it would bother. Season 2 is one of my favourite seasons and thats quite standalone ish. I do love that DS9 tried the arcs though

 

[Praxius]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

Which two arcs?

The six-episode arc that began season six, and the 9-episode (10-hour) episode arc that concluded season seven.

Are you referring towards the Dominion/Cardassian occupation of DS9 and the battles that revolved around that And the Cardassian revolt/final battles?

Or the Prophets/Sisko/Dukat religious aspect in season 7?

All of the above? None of the above?

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

It definitely wouldn't be the same show at all for me. I love, love, love that they went all serialized on DS9's ass, you know? It might not be good for ratings in the long run, but for subsequent viewings it's glorious. So much more natural in the development department, like Praxius said.

I'd give a couple of fingers for a new Moore/Behr/Echevarria genre series.

 

[Ensign Johnson]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

DS9 did have some fab stand alone episodes and I did enjoy the early seasons but I really liked the Dominion war storyline. I do like Voyager more than DS9 but that's because of the characters I actually think DS9 has a stronger storyline but Voyagers humour makes me want to re-watch more often. With DS9 being set on a space station instead of a ship it makes sense to have storylines that span over a whole season. If we didn't have the dominion we'd have missed out on weyoun (sp)

 

[DonIago]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

I can't imagine what they could replace the final chunk of the show with that would ultimately be as satisfying as what we got...parts of it were flawed, but overall I think it's one of the finest segments of Trek.

Standalones sound fairly horrifying by comparison.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

For me, the Dominion War is what makes DS9 the exceptional Trek. The fact that the show was not an episodic 'bad guy of the week' sort of show is what separates it from the rest of Trek and makes it my favorite.

If you take out the Dominion War (which is what you are really talking about here) it wouldn't be the same show, and the motivation behind some of it's best episodes would be missing. It would be kind of hard to do In the Pale Moonlight, for example, without the Dominion War. Same with The Siege of AR-558 and It's Only a Paper Moon, two episodes that are also not a part of either of the 'two arcs' to which the OP refers.

In truth, however, I believe that everything from mid-season 3 onward is part of the overall Dominion War arc. The multi-parters are sub-arcs within the larger war arc.

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

I can't imagine what they could replace the final chunk of the show with that would ultimately be as satisfying as what we got...parts of it were flawed, but overall I think it's one of the finest segments of Trek.

Standalones sound fairly horrifying by comparison.

Perhaps they could have explored more of Bajor's political situation, joining the UFP, etc. Or something entirely different, or a bunch of self contained episodes a la VOY and TNG.

For me, it's hard to imagine what'd be like.

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

Which two arcs?

The six-episode arc that began season six, and the 9-episode (10-hour) episode arc that concluded season seven.

Are you referring towards the Dominion/Cardassian occupation of DS9 and the battles that revolved around that And the Cardassian revolt/final battles?

Or the Prophets/Sisko/Dukat religious aspect in season 7?

All of the above? None of the above?

There were six episodes that started season six that were like a mini-series. The seventh episode (You Are Cordially Invited... didn't have to take place then, but the previous six had to be shown in order.)

Likewise, the final nine episodes (one was a two parter) had to be shown more or less sequentially. And someone tuning in in the middle would have trouble figuring out what was going on, whereas in TNG and VOY, the order of watching would make very little difference.

Again, the two arcs were like two miniseries. UPN didn't want VOY to do that because it was afraid the casual viewer would be confused and tune out. IIRC, Braga or Moore or someone wanted to make Year of Hell into a multi episode story, not just a two parter, but UPN nixed that.

 

[DonIago]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

I can't imagine what they could replace the final chunk of the show with that would ultimately be as satisfying as what we got...parts of it were flawed, but overall I think it's one of the finest segments of Trek.

Standalones sound fairly horrifying by comparison.

Perhaps they could have explored more of Bajor's political situation, joining the UFP, etc. Or something entirely different, or a bunch of self contained episodes a la VOY and TNG.

For me, it's hard to imagine what'd be like.

For that to be satisfying at the end of the show I think they would have needed a different arc story, not a number of self-contained episodes.

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

I can't imagine what they could replace the final chunk of the show with that would ultimately be as satisfying as what we got...parts of it were flawed, but overall I think it's one of the finest segments of Trek.

Standalones sound fairly horrifying by comparison.

Perhaps they could have explored more of Bajor's political situation, joining the UFP, etc. Or something entirely different, or a bunch of self contained episodes a la VOY and TNG.

For me, it's hard to imagine what'd be like.

For that to be satisfying at the end of the show I think they would have needed a different arc story, not a number of self-contained episodes.

True.

In fact, as Marie1 and Praxius alluded to, the entirety of DS9 was kind of a collection of many story arcs. Even if there weren't the six and nine episode miniseries, DS9 still is essentially a serial show, which is why I think so many like it.

Consider the difference between inviting a non-fan to watch a DS9 or VOY episode with you. Imagine the following conversation as you try to explain:

• 
  For VOY: You: "It's about ship stuck 50-some years from home. They got transported there at the beginning by a strange alien. Now they're trying to get home. They run into various problems along the way."
  
  Your friend: "Ok, I see." [Friend quickly gets who is who and can easily discern things such as B'Elanna is the hot-head engineer, Tom is the playboy, Harry is the newbie, the Doctor is a computer hologram, and Seven is an ex-Borg. And the Alien-of-the-Week is probably unfriendly.]
  
• 
  For DS9: You: "Well, let's see. It's about a space station near a wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant. The station is run by Starfleet but owned by the Bajorans. The Dominion and Cardassians are a problem. Sometimes there are political problems on Bajor, for a while the Klingons fight the Federation, but eventually the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans form an alliance to fight the Dominion, Cardassians, and Breen."
  
  Your friend: "Huh? What's the big deal about Bajor? Why aren't they part of the Federation? What do the Cardassians have to do with Bajor? What's the Gamma Quadrant? What's the Dominion? Who are the Vorta, Founders and Jem'Hadar? What's with this Cardassian named Dukat? Why are the Klingons and Romulans involved? Why is the Dominion fighting the Federation? Who are the Prophets? Are they aliens? Why is Kira not wearing a Starfleet uniform? Who's Kai Winn? Is she an enemy? " etc.

I can see why UPN wanted VOY to stay away from serialized stories, even though many true Trek fans would've liked it. Except in a few rare circumstances (such as the Seska-as-traitor plot, Kes's return, or Seven exploring her humanity -- which is all that needs to be said about that, really) you can jump in and watch any episode without harm.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

I'd actually go for option 2. I like the two story arcs a lot, but when all's said and done, I was a DS9 fan long before I saw them.

 

[Marie1]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

Which two arcs?

The six-episode arc that began season six, and the 9-episode (10-hour) episode arc that concluded season seven.

I thought the end of the second arc dragged quite a bit...

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

I must say I'm surprised: I thought the principal reason fans liked DS9 was for its epic miniseries. Of course, there are many excellent stand-alone episodes (eg, Trials and Tribble-ations), and the entire show had character development and a continuity that was unmatched by all other Treks.

This is what amazes me, and I'll probably start another thread to discuss: I can't believe the writers didn't start the show with it all planned in advance. The team if writers used ad hoc methods and ended up creating a show that all the appearances of something that had a master plan from the start. It just all ended up coming together.

 

[DonIago]

Re: How would the removal of the two arcs affect your fondness for DS9

This is why I don't feel that B5 and DS9 should be compared. They were both great, but B5's greatness was largely pre-planned (and it could be argued that many of the non-planned episodes aren't among its best), while DS9, to my mind, deserves a lot of credit for how the writers kept things going without having an advance plan.