How would the Federation have treated Jem'Hadar prisoners of war?

[TheSeeker]

Hey, @Jayson1 , multi-quote is your friend.

Just sayin'.

 

[Farscape One]

Stagnation as such could be boring, I admit that. But character destruction is even more boring and also destructive.

What I wan is stories in an established timeline where the main characters are active and highly alive. petriod.

I don't have any interest at all to read about O'Briens life as an aged and boring has-been while in the same book reading about ensign Izzy Podborski duing O'Briens previous job on the station (but not as good) or about some Captain Ebenezer Firefly as Sisko's replacement or Dr Bibi Tobacco doing Bashir's job. Why, because I find those new characters bland and boring compared with the original characters.

In short, when I read a DS9 story, then I want it to be about the original characters. I could say the same about TV episodes as well as long as it includes the original cast members and not some replacements.

Otherwise it will be like the current NCIS where all the orignal characters have been replaced, a reason why I don't follow the show anymore, just watching it occasionally when I have nothing else to do. The stories are still good.

OK, I could probably think that Captain Firefly and Ensign Podborski are decent characters if the show up inn a new story or movie on some new ship or on a station in the Idran system on the other side of he wormhole.

If the stories are good and the characters accpetable, I might start to like them or at least accept them (as I do when i pretend that the current NCIS is a spinoff set in another town). But it would be very hard to watch DS9 or read books about DS9 if the original characters aren't involved.

And the most stupid things to do are changes just for the sake of changing. That never ends good.

Once upon a time, there was a good hard rock band who were "up there" among the worlds best. They had a distinctive style and was a great live act who packed the arenas.

Then one day, they decided to make a somewhat different album with more adapted music, more sythezisers and such.

However, the record flopped and many fans thought they had sold out. "They don't sound as they used to" was a major complaint.

So when they made their next record, they went back to the previous style.

But it was too late. They never got the popularity back in the same way that it had been before, even if they continued to tour and make records.

Regarding O'Brien...

I hardly think O'Brien teaching at the Academy makes him a 'has been'. In fact, it reinforces how highly skilled he is because he is going to be spreading that knowledge to all cadets... cadets who will be future officers. Not just a few people here and there he serves with.

And for all practical purposes, Nog replaced O'Brien on DS9. And Nog was working with and learning from O'Brien for 2 and a half years. And he proved himself to be a very capable engineer. So DS9 is in good hands.


And by the way... teaching is one of the most important jobs around. I've never looked at teachers as being 'has beens'. Having O'Brien be a teacher... you're giving an important job to (my opinion) the best engineer in the franchise. Teaching can be its own adventure.

 

[evilchumlee]

The thing is I have no problem with the "dark, angsty future" angle, it's just been done now. We got it with Picard. I don't hate that it happened. I thought it worked very well for Picard, who realistically always had a bit of a dark, angsty vibe (somewhat distant from the crew, few apparent friends, little to no love life, no children, etc.)

PIC went generally heavy with it, giving most of the TNG crew some kind of dark thing happening. I'm happy they left Geordie alone.

DS9 was dark enough already. O'Brian in particular paid his darkness dues. Let him just be a cool old engineer guy who likes to scare the kids.

 

[fireproof78]

Stagnation as such could be boring, I admit that. But character destruction is even more boring and also destructive.

Nope.

Characters staying the same is the most unrealistic, and disturbs me far more than supposed destruction.

ETA:

PIC went generally heavy with it, giving most of the TNG crew some kind of dark thing happening. I'm happy they left Geordie alone.

It really isn't that dark. You had an exploration of natural consequences from within the universe. Some challenges will be handled well, and others not so well.

 

[Lynx]

But this wouldn't be a continuation of DS9. It would simply have a former DS9 character as a main character. And a TNG one as well since he of course first started on TNG. You can also look at the change being similar to how the TOS characters are somewhat different due to age in the TOS movies. Yet at their core they are still the same people.

But it would be in a very boring role.

If they want a grumpy old guy, they could probably come up with someone else.

Let us remember O'Brien for what it was when he was at his best.

 

[fireproof78]

No, let's show him age in to a new role.

Life is not static.

 

[Lynx]

Regarding O'Brien...

I hardly think O'Brien teaching at the Academy makes him a 'has been'. In fact, it reinforces how highly skilled he is because he is going to be spreading that knowledge to all cadets... cadets who will be future officers. Not just a few people here and there he serves with.

And for all practical purposes, Nog replaced O'Brien on DS9. And Nog was working with and learning from O'Brien for 2 and a half years. And he proved himself to be a very capable engineer. So DS9 is in good hands.

And by the way... teaching is one of the most important jobs around. I've never looked at teachers as being 'has beens'. Having O'Brien be a teacher... you're giving an important job to (my opinion) the best engineer in the franchise. Teaching can be its own adventure.

It wouldn't be the same as it was in the seies when it was at its best.
I like Nog, a very good character. But he would never be as good as O'Brien.

Nope.

Characters staying the same is the most unrealistic, and disturbs me far more than supposed destruction.

I don't call it stagnation if the stories are told in the same time frame as DS9.
For events in a later timeframe, I preder new characters.

It really isn't that dark. You had an exploration of natural consequences from within the universe. Some challenges will be handled well, and others not so well.

Honestly, Picard was a horrible series. Just doom-and-gloom, so far from what TNG was. I wish that it had never been made.

 

[kkt]

The suffering is part of his past. That stuff stays with you. But it doesn't mean you can find happiness and peace as well. It also the stuff that would lend to him being a good teacher because he has seen things, awful things in his life and that gives you experience. The irony in my idea is O'Brien who is like a old solider is the one wanting to make Starfeet like it was before the Dominion War where as the new Commandant is also a old solider but her suffering has lead to her becoming more cynical so she wants Starfleet to be more military like. Both with similar past but both took away a different lesson from it.

The PTSD should stay with him. One of the slips in DS9 is that "Hard Time" set him up for PTSD for decades, yet it was never mentioned again, not even telling Julian once that he can't go to the holosuite right then because he has a counseling session.

 

[Jayson1]

Hey, @Jayson1 , multi-quote is your friend.

Just sayin'.

I never learned how to do that. My two biggest posting issues is I never learned how to multi-quote and also for some reason I can never do links right except from Youtube. Memes either.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly, Picard was a horrible series. Just doom-and-gloom, so far from what TNG was. I wish that it had never been made.

Not even close.

And if it hadn't been made, then your interaction with it would be the same as now. So, either ignore and let those of us who enjoy it do so, or acknowledge that it's ok for things to get a little darker, though not even close to doom or gloom. Just darker. Kind of like DS9...strangely enough.

I don't call it stagnation if the stories are told in the same time frame as DS9.
For events in a later timeframe, I preder new characters.

But that's absurd. Life doesn't work that way. Why not show O'Brien growing in to a new stage of life, facing new challenges, and growing in his experiences, while still healing from the trauma of war?

That's drama right there. That's opportunity to show what aging can look like, not a thing to feared and shunned and that heroes never do. Star Trek claims optimism, yet routinely spurns the later stages of life as being stagnate and unworthy. It's absurdity at it's highest point for a franchise built on the human experience ignoring this very real aspect.

 

[evilchumlee]

The PTSD should stay with him. One of the slips in DS9 is that "Hard Time" set him up for PTSD for decades, yet it was never mentioned again, not even telling Julian once that he can't go to the holosuite right then because he has a counseling session.

He already had a pretty heaping helping of PTSD from the Cardassian War.

"It's not you that I hate, Cardassian. I hate what I became because of you."

Not even close.

And if it hadn't been made, then your interaction with it would be the same as now. So, either ignore and let those of us who enjoy it do so, or acknowledge that it's ok for things to get a little darker, though not even close to doom or gloom. Just darker. Kind of like DS9...strangely enough.

Yeah, PIC isn't really that dark.

It's... "mildly sad old Picard".

Seven's story is WAY darker than Picard's, so I can give you that, and Troi/Riker get a rough patch, but otherwise it's not really that bad.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, PIC isn't really that dark.

It's... "mildly sad old Picard".

Seven's story is WAY darker than Picard's, so I can give you that, and Troi/Riker get a rough patch, but otherwise it's not really that bad.

And it ends on a higher point. It's Picard struggling with personal disappointments, not doom and gloom for the whole Federation.

It's far more a reflection on Picard and company than anything in the whole Federation, which is actually quite something given the massive, quadrant spanning war, that happened.

 

[Farscape One]

Not even close.

And if it hadn't been made, then your interaction with it would be the same as now. So, either ignore and let those of us who enjoy it do so, or acknowledge that it's ok for things to get a little darker, though not even close to doom or gloom. Just darker. Kind of like DS9...strangely enough.


But that's absurd. Life doesn't work that way. Why not show O'Brien growing in to a new stage of life, facing new challenges, and growing in his experiences, while still healing from the trauma of war?

That's drama right there. That's opportunity to show what aging can look like, not a thing to feared and shunned and that heroes never do. Star Trek claims optimism, yet routinely spurns the later stages of life as being stagnate and unworthy. It's absurdity at it's highest point for a franchise built on the human experience ignoring this very real aspect.

Bingo.

There are a lot of challenges and adventures and issues that are specific to an older person, in addition to stuff that happened to a person earlier in their life.

Great example... THE GOLDEN GIRLS. That was a great show. It was not only very funny, but tackled a lot of things older people go through. (And was quite good at tackling issues for the younger crowd, too.)

 

[fireproof78]

Great example... THE GOLDEN GIRLS. That was a great show. It was not only very funny, but tackled a lot of things older people go through. (And was quite good at tackling issues for the younger crowd, too.)

That show was ahead of its time. It tackled teen delinquency, family struggles, poverty, homelessness, drug use, age difference in relationships, scam artists, among other topics.

It's great.

 

[Ragitsu]

Hey, @Jayson1 , multi-quote is your friend.

Just sayin'.

Might it possibly be a "friend with benefits"?

 

[evilchumlee]

And it ends on a higher point. It's Picard struggling with personal disappointments, not doom and gloom for the whole Federation.

Exactly.

I think some people who haven't seen it think Picard is like, on heroin passed out in a gutter somewhere.

It's more that he tried to tackle a monumental task in the twilight of his career, made a bluff play he probably shouldn't have, and ended up retiring with some regrets.

And then when action comes to call him back, people don't really take him seriously anymore because he's just an old man.

(one of my favorite low key things introduced in season 3 is the running gag that his wine is terrible.)

 

[Ragitsu]

Urinating on an already spent effigy.

 

[Lynx]

Not even close.

And if it hadn't been made, then your interaction with it would be the same as now. So, either ignore and let those of us who enjoy it do so, or acknowledge that it's ok for things to get a little darker, though not even close to doom or gloom. Just darker. Kind of like DS9...strangely enough.

DS9 had it's dark episodes. But there were always lighter episodes in between them. PIC, or should I call it "The Android Picard" was just boring.

It's really so ironic that I have to laugh.

For decades, I've been waiting for a series from the 24th century which takes off when TNG, DS9 and VOY ended and when I finally got it, it's a doom-and-gloom series, I mean they just had to kill off Picard and make him an android.

Fortunately I have an advanced sick sense of humor so I can laugh at it. Or like Tom Paris of Voyager once said: "Story of my life."

But it's a free world so feel free to enjoy it. I don't.

But that's absurd. Life doesn't work that way. Why not show O'Brien growing in to a new stage of life, facing new challenges, and growing in his experiences, while still healing from the trauma of war?

That's drama right there. That's opportunity to show what aging can look like, not a thing to feared and shunned and that heroes never do. Star Trek claims optimism, yet routinely spurns the later stages of life as being stagnate and unworthy. It's absurdity at it's highest point for a franchise built on the human experience ignoring this very real aspect.

Aging is a curse, nothing more. Anyone who states the opposite is either very naive or lying.

I can understand that the realism of the "Gray Universe" is an important part of good storytelling but it can be good not to include too much of it.

And for those who prefer such realism with aging, diseases, illness, pain and sorrows, well there are a lot of those hospital series on several channels right now.

I try to stay out of it, I've already had my fair share of deaths and tragedies here in the "Gray Universe", thank you.

 

[Sci]

I could never understand that "going back to Earth to be a teacher at the Academy".

Actually a bad solution, sort of "Miles is going back to Earth because he just have to leave the station Deep Space Nine because everyone in this great gang must leave because we in charge have decided that".

I must admit that I couldn't imagine him as a teacher at the Academy. Ever since watching the last episode, my thoughts have been: "he will be bored to death after six week and back on Deep Space Nine in ten, fixing things and building Alamo with Bashir.

As far as the DS9 writers were concerned, it was the end of his story, and they gave him a happy ending. He lived Happily Ever After on Earth with Keiko, never to be temporally duplicated, brainwashed, or tortured again.

In the books The Never Ending Sacirfice and The Crimson Shadow, (By Una McCormack) he and his family are back in the Cardassian-Bajoran area, probably stationed on Deep Space Nine again which is a good solution

Sure, although they moved there for Keiko's career, not Miles's. She was the one leading the agriculture project on Cardassia.

Yes. It should be Keiko's turn to say where they move for the good for her career. There's things to fix just about everywhere.

Yep. And that's exactly what happened in the novels.

Hardly.
Not what I want to read about or see a movie about.
Just a waste of a great character.

It's not a waste of a character, it's an ending for a character. You might as well complain about Dorothy going back to Kansas at the end of The Wizard of Oz.

DS9 had it's dark episodes. But there were always lighter episodes in between them.

And PIC had plenty of light-hearted parts, too.

For decades, I've been waiting for a series from the 24th century which takes off when TNG, DS9 and VOY ended and when I finally got it, it's a doom-and-gloom series, I mean they just had to kill off Picard and make him an android.

They no more "killed Picard off and made him an android" than they did "kill Spock off and make him a clone." It's the same Spock in a new body at the end of TSFS; it's the same Picard in a new body at the end of PIC S1.

Fortunately I have an advanced sick sense of humor so I can laugh at it. Or like Tom Paris of Voyager once said: "Story of my life."

<SNIP>

Aging is a curse, nothing more. Anyone who states the opposite is either very naive or lying.

I can understand that the realism of the "Gray Universe" is an important part of good storytelling but it can be good not to include too much of it.

And for those who prefer such realism with aging, diseases, illness, pain and sorrows, well there are a lot of those hospital series on several channels right now.

I try to stay out of it, I've already had my fair share of deaths and tragedies here in the "Gray Universe", thank you.

Listen, there's nothing wrong with wanting escapism. But Star Trek has always had darkness alongside its whimsy. For every "Shore Leave," there was a "City on the Edge of Forever" or a "Balance of Terror." Hell, its first two episodes are tragedies about a doomed race resorting to slavery to survive and Kirk having to kill his best friend gone insane.

What makes Star Trek the thing it is, is that its darkness doesn't define the entire narrative. Even when dark things happen, Star Trek ultimately ends in light. The Talosians may be doomed, but they will redeem themselves by giving the gift of restored life to Pike and Veena. Kirk may have had to kill Gary Mitchel, but he'll have it noted that Gary died in the line of duty as a casualty of the Galactic Barrier. Matt Decker may have had to die, but the Doomsday Machine was destroyed and Kirk had him recorded as a hero. There may be a barbaric empire in the Mirror Universe, but Kirk will inspire Spock to overthrow that dictatorship. Etc.

And PIC is part of that tradition. 2385 may happen, but Picard leads the Federation to atone for its actions. The Borg may invade, but they are defeated and a new Borg based on consent and equality rather than oppression and conquest will rise in their place. Romulus may fall, but a new Romulan state whose people have more rights and freedoms replaces it. Picard may have major problems with interpersonal relationships (problems that were obviously present in TNG itself), but by the series end he's overcome those issues and rebuilt his fractured relationships -- he's more whole than he ever was on TNG.

You're welcome to prefer a story where no one ever really suffers in the first place, but stories where suffering happens and then the characters overcome it have always been part of the Star Trek legacy. As Jean-Luc Picard puts it in "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part II:" "That's why we're here -- to save each other!"

 

[fireproof78]

For decades, I've been waiting for a series from the 24th century which takes off when TNG, DS9 and VOY ended and when I finally got it, it's a doom-and-gloom series,

It's not doom and gloom. However you're using that phrase it doesn't fit.

Listen, there's nothing wrong with wanting escapism.

Yes there is.

You're welcome to prefer a story where no one ever really suffers in the first place, but stories where suffering happens and then the characters overcome it have always been part of the Star Trek legacy. As Jean-Luc Picard puts it in "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part II:" "That's why we're here -- to save each other!"

And that's what every new series shows is the crew overcoming differences to face challenges and become better. That's why it's not "doom and gloom" to belabor the point. Picard's death is s sacrifice showing commitment to a people he just met, and actually has a high personal cost.

Far from boring, it's very mythic in its approach.

I don't even like Picard that much but it definitely goes out on a positive note. It just had to take a darker path, which is what stories have always done. I would not recommend reading LOTR, Robin Hood, The Msn in the Iron Mask, or other such classic stories if death of a hero is off putting.