How would having no currency work?

[Myasishchev]

on a practical level it wouldnt work.

IRL 90% of the federation would be benefit scroungers and nothing would get done

Why would nothing get done? Does an automated economy need a bunch of people doing things?

In just thirty or forty years, I doubt much more than 10% of us will be able to really participate in the economy. It's far more a question of how society will react to the logical endpoint of the automation revolution, than whether it will happen at all.

Roddenberry envisioned a freeloader society with an elite 10% actually doing valuable work that couldn't be automated. No matter how many sour grapes as folks like to crush regarding the subject, perhaps because they've had to "work" all their lives and feel cheated--one wonders if their serf ancestors felt the same way about work today, when they weren't too busy dying of diptheria--the only plausible alternative is far drearier than a bunch of hippies enjoying their holodeck. That alternative being, of course, a social darwinist wonderland probably eventually resulting in massive human dieback.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It's been said on the show that humans work to better themselves, not to support the economy.

That would make sense, since lying around feeding off a replicator wouldn't get you much respect and relying on wealth won't impress anyone either.

I don't think society would collapse with the no money system, only that the "businesses" being run, greed, and financial intrigue seems weird.

Federation credits don't seem to be worth much out in space...

 

[Infern0]

on a practical level it wouldnt work.

IRL 90% of the federation would be benefit scroungers and nothing would get done

Why would nothing get done? Does an automated economy need a bunch of people doing things?

In just thirty or forty years, I doubt much more than 10% of us will be able to really participate in the economy. It's far more a question of how society will react to the logical endpoint of the automation revolution, than whether it will happen at all.

Roddenberry envisioned a freeloader society with an elite 10% actually doing valuable work that couldn't be automated. No matter how many sour grapes as folks like to crush regarding the subject, perhaps because they've had to "work" all their lives and feel cheated--one wonders if their serf ancestors felt the same way about work today, when they weren't too busy dying of diptheria--the only plausible alternative is far drearier than a bunch of hippies enjoying their holodeck. That alternative being, of course, a social darwinist wonderland probably eventually resulting in massive human dieback.

I'm not going that deep into things, if people don't have to work, more power to them, but there are always going to be people required to work, in things like customer service, construction etc.

In 30 years i doubt we will have robots building houses and serving at mcdonalds etc.

 

[T'Girl]

That means even replicators can be distributed to many people.

Except that they weren't, again the Federation gave Bajor two big replicators in the first episodes, years later there was no indication that the machines had become common place upon Bajor.

That's because they used the artificial scarcity problem- otherwise the problems might be solved too easily and quickly with replicators.

Its supposed to communicate the urgency and the need, but as long as you have replicators it doesn't always seem to make sense.

You're using a out-universe motivation, to explain a in-universe occurance.

From what I've seen, replicators can be as small as a stove

No, that just the receiver, the panels you see in various rooms are not the replicator itself, that just a control input, and a receiving slot.

Replicators are big.

The mines self-replicate because if you destroy one, its neighbor will replace it, not it its destroyed self.

Exactly, I watched the episode with the mine field destruction on youtube last night. The way , as I understand it, that it's designed to work is, a group of mines detonate to destroy a target, the mines outside of the detonation area then quickly replicate more mines, which then rush to fill the gap in the mine field. I f they do this fast enough, the enemy can not create a gap in the field.

The Cardassians began destroying mines at one end of the field and worked their way across, starting away from th viewer perspective and moving towards the viewer, the closest mines to the viewers were the last to go.

The closest mines to the viewers at no point were seen to replicate replacement mines ... and you could see individual mines in the foreground. No replacements

... because they've found a better way to motivate and account for people to be productive.

If you don't mind me asking ... who are they supposed to be?

It's not about the money for Steve Jobs. Or James Kirk.

Watch part of Generations last night too (I need to date) in the scene between Kirk and Picard inside the cabin where Kirk was chopping wood, Kirk said "But I sold this house months ago." Not, "The government seized this house months ago."

Kirk sold the house for filthy money.

 

[neozeks]

The closest mines to the viewers at no point were seen to replicate replacement mines ... and you could see individual mines in the foreground. No replacements

I may be misremembering things but wasn't that because the Cardassians used some technobabble solution to prevent them from replicating?

 

[Saito S]

You're using a out-universe motivation, to explain a in-universe occurance.

But what is the in-universe explanation?

I'm not saying you're wrong; the show does tell us that giving "industrial replicators" to Bajor and Cardassia was kind of a big deal, but no explanation is given, which is especially odd when you consider the commonality of "normal" (shipboard) replicators. There may not BE a really good in-universe explanation, forcing us to chalk it up to "the plot demanded it". It would hardly be the only time in Trek where that's the only reasoning available for a given plot thread.

No, that just the receiver, the panels you see in various rooms are not the replicator itself, that just a control input, and a receiving slot.

Replicators are big.

Do we know that? Was the size of a normal replicator ever established? I don't recall it if it was.

Exactly, I watched the episode with the mine field destruction on youtube last night. The way , as I understand it, that it's designed to work is, a group of mines detonate to destroy a target, the mines outside of the detonation area then quickly replicate more mines, which then rush to fill the gap in the mine field. I f they do this fast enough, the enemy can not create a gap in the field.

The Cardassians began destroying mines at one end of the field and worked their way across, starting away from th viewer perspective and moving towards the viewer, the closest mines to the viewers were the last to go.

The closest mines to the viewers at no point were seen to replicate replacement mines ... and you could see individual mines in the foreground. No replacements

Um...
They spent days disabling the replication unit on each mine, one at a time, so that when they DID try to destroy the minefield, it wouldn't just replicate new mines. You said you just watched it... did you miss the scene with Dukat explaining to Weyoun that each little pulse of light (that Weyoun couldn't see) was the anti-graviton beam hitting a mine and disabling its replication unit? Later in the ep, when they fired on the minefield producing the explosion you refer to (the one that moves "toward" the viewer as it progresses), no replacements are made because the Cardassians had disabled the replicators, which until that happened were working just fine.

I agree that the role replicators can and do play in providing for society is dodgy at best. It's never been made clear what kinds of resources are consumed by operating them vs. what resources they can produce, or why scarcity problems (not just on Bajor, but in general) couldn't be solved with them. But in terms of the self-replicating mines specifically, and how they worked in that ep (and what the Cardassians had to do to get rid of them), you are misrepresenting them pretty severely.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the above point by neozeks. But no, you're not misremembering things, that's exactly right.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I got to agree with Saito S.

If you look at some episodes, they feature what looks like portable replicators-like the one where Dukat and Sisko were stranded on a planet together.

We see sudden shortages of common things at various times on trek episodes. Like stembolts for examples.

I admit Bajor is an actual planet which makes the task much larger and difficult, but Humans are saying there is no need or even want on Earth, probably because of the replicators.

And yet Bajorans complained of bad weather causing hunger and shortages of this or that -

What happened to the weather modification nets?

Shouldn't replicators-especially with the idea that replicators can create other replicators solve some these problem fairly quickly?

 

[Captain Verata]

Picard and Worf brought a replicator for Kevin and Rishon. Thats the thing in front of Worf. Probably the small household replicator, not an industrial type.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s3/3x03/thesurvivors117.jpg

 

[JayOwl]

on a practical level it wouldnt work.

IRL 90% of the federation would be benefit scroungers and nothing would get done

Exactly. Most people work for money, enjoying the work is simply a bonus. The only workforce would be volunteers.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The mines looked no bigger than the unit in the picture.

I think the volunteers you might see are scientists, doctors, actors, military and law enforcement jobs, that give a sense of accomplishment or ego satisfaction.

But some other jobs-it's not going to make any sense.

Is someone really going to go around cleaning up after someone else all day for nothing, like Data's housekeeper?

DATA: She can be trying at times.
But she does make me laugh.

For this? lol

 

[Myasishchev]

She's a robot.

Alternatively, how much would you need to clean up after Data? Scooping his cat's shit would be about the length and breadth of the assignment.

 

[neozeks]

I'm not saying you're wrong; the show does tell us that giving "industrial replicators" to Bajor and Cardassia was kind of a big deal, but no explanation is given, which is especially odd when you consider the commonality of "normal" (shipboard) replicators. There may not BE a really good in-universe explanation, forcing us to chalk it up to "the plot demanded it". It would hardly be the only time in Trek where that's the only reasoning available for a given plot thread.

Well, we don't really know the capabilities of industrial vs normal vs portable replicators. For all we know, those industrial replicators could be the size of a starship, are equivalent in output to a large factory and require an extensive infrastructure to operate. That may be the reason why poor planets still exist even with replicators - replicators are awesome but you first need an extensive energy/raw material providing infrastructure to run them on a large enough scale. I'm not sure if it's a good reason but at least it's something.

True, that portable TNG replicator muddies things a lot. But Picard himself says in that episode it has only limited capability. He also says it will provide them with food/water/clothes, though, so that may not mean much. Maybe that replicator is military-grade "expensive" hardware?

And yeah, the self-replicating mines REALLY mess up things. Perhaps the new mines replicated by the old ones weren't supposed to have a replicator themselves? It would surely reduce the effectiveness of the minefield compared to if every mine had a replicator but would still make it more potent than just ordinary mines. Flimsy, I know.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the above point by neozeks.

That's how I roll.

What happened to the weather modification nets?

Destroyed by the Cardassians, probably. And bulding and operating a new one may require a lot of time, resources and expertise.

Is someone really going to go around cleaning up after someone else all day for nothing, like Data's housekeeper

Enterprise was supposed to clean itself, IIRC. We never saw any little robots vacuuming around but, hey, nanobots?

 

[T'Girl]

Last time we saw anyone cleaning a floor was outside to simulator in TWOK.

 

[Xerxes1979]

She's a robot.

Alternatively, how much would you need to clean up after Data? Scooping his cat's shit would be about the length and breadth of the assignment.

She may have been holographic. The entire fire and bookshelf appeared to a be an illusion that covered a communications terminal so the presence of holoemitters cannot be denied.

She certainly did not seem like a 24th century minded personality. Data who loves historical fiction could have simply created her for his own amusement.

 

[brian577]

Interesting article on the subject
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/economy.htm

 

[JarodRussell]

Currency is essential for any economy. You can't pay for a car with cows if the car owner doesn't need cows. You need currency.

What you can eliminate is greed. The mindset that you have to be compensated for every single fucking thing you do.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I was curious about that, so I tried looking it up.

It doesn't say either way, but it looks as if she was a real person-the script itself doesn't identify her as artificial but an English woman in her 50's.

She was also identified as a housekeeper, so it could mean she lived with Data and that she basically kept the house up for him.

Except for no payment, no compensation.
Heck, it's not even her own home.


I read the article from the link and read something interesting.

Trek keeps making it more confusing- Tom Paris said that money disappeared in the 22nd century when a new economy took hold.

So somehow humans gave up money even before replicators were invented.

How could they have accomplished something like that at that particular time?

 

[T'Girl]

Tom Paris said that money disappeared in the 22nd century when a new economy took hold.

This is the same Tom Paris who claimed that in warp flight you can't turn left or right?

Except for no payment, no compensation.
Heck, it's not even her own home.

As the Cambridge professor holding the Lucasian Academic Chair in Mathematics. Data would have been provided the house by the university, with Jessel's wages or salary as housekeeper likely coming from the university.

[22nd century] So somehow humans gave up money even before replicators were invented.

Except after the 22nd century Humans were still gleefully using money. Buying drinks, Tribbles, houses, planets.

 

[Itisnotlogical]

Currency is essential for any economy. You can't pay for a car with cows if the car owner doesn't need cows. You need currency.

What you can eliminate is greed. The mindset that you have to be compensated for every single fucking thing you do.

Yes. But if the car owner had no other car and lived far away from the only store within x amount of miles, he should simply be content that he had done the right thing and hike his ass back and forth every time he wants to buy something?

Wanting something in return for something of value (excluding gifts and charity and such, of course) isn't greed, it's fair exchange. Wanting money for doing something selfless, like pulling an unconscious person off of the highway or saving the family dog from burning up in a house fire, that is greed.

 

[Nightdiamond]

As the Cambridge professor holding the Lucasian Academic Chair in Mathematics. Data would have been provided the house by the university, with Jessel's wages or salary as housekeeper likely coming from the university.

From what Jake Sisko said, humans don't get paid for their work or labor.

Money may not be used at all on earth, according to the dialogs.

Wanting something in return for something of value (excluding gifts and charity and such, of course) isn't greed, it's fair exchange. Wanting money for doing something selfless, like pulling an unconscious person off of the highway or saving the family dog from burning up in a house fire, that is greed.

It would be nice if people did do things like run a restaurant for absolutely free.

But realistically, even in the future, I think people are simply going to want to get compensated for doing something labor intensive or strenuous.

Remember the episode where it showed Sisko was scrubbing oysters off, one after the other? They're serving real food, and cutting and cooking it up. And cutting themselves while doing it.

But if Jake didn't get paid for his articles, that means the customers don't pay for the food. Because they're not getting paid, lol.

They're just pretending to run a profit based business for fun or satisfaction it seems, though I could be wrong.

What other option is there?